1992 stock Refurbishment?

[Central]

The chances are, that once the 1992 work eventually finishes, there will be no future work and the facility will be mothballed.

The plan is for 96TS to be refurbished there.

 

[Nym]

The chances are, that once the 1992 work eventually finishes, there will be no future work and the facility will be mothballed.

More than likely due to the delays in CLIP as the intent was for the facility to do S Stock heavy work on this site, but it's now due at the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2026 ==

The plan is for 96TS to be refurbished there.

So looks like the plan is to do everything there.

Also, wasn't 1996TS just "Refurbished" in the TFOS at Stratford Market?

Or is this to now do the welding work that's been known about for ages but wasn't done because they money wasn't wanting to be spent?

 

[announcements]

The S stock? Surely the '09 stock is in more need?

 

[Recessio]

The S stock? Surely the '09 stock is in more need?

Or the 95, they're starting to look equally tired. Wasn't the 96 refurbished within the last decade?

 

[bluegoblin7]

More than likely due to the delays in CLIP as the intent was for the facility to do S Stock heavy work on this site, but it's now due at the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2026 ==


So looks like the plan is to do everything there.

Also, wasn't 1996TS just "Refurbished" in the TFOS at Stratford Market?

Or is this to now do the welding work that's been known about for ages but wasn't done because they money wasn't wanting to be spent?

The last I heard the 96TS was more along the lines of life extension work than a refurbishment - although the refurbishment (refresh) at Stratford was more internal only. 96TS work is something that probably would historically have been done via TMU like the 72TS extension works.

 

[Nym]

The S stock? Surely the '09 stock is in more need?

The 09TS can't practicably fit through the tunnels to get to Acton.

 

[Mikey C]

Or the 95, they're starting to look equally tired. Wasn't the 96 refurbished within the last decade?

The 95s are leased from Alstom though until 2031 I think. I assume all work would be done by Alstom.

And none of the stock, other than the 72s and 92s need the major interior changes for RVAR that those trains are getting.

 

[Mojo]

Despite being a daily Central line user the Clip trains have managed to evade me thus far but I’ve finally managed to catch one.

Externally, half of one car was completely covered in graffiti, including the windows.

Inside, the brighter lighting, new floors and new moquette have definitely improved the ambience, but none of the panels seem to have been touched with evidence of years of build up of grime and vandalism still visible.

Unlike other interior refreshes, the seats are still well padded and the moquette seems quite loosely fitted.

“The next station is” announcement plays twice, once whilst you’re still pulling out of the station before and then again when on the approach, which seems a bit unnecessary.

I was also surprised to see that they have taken the opportunity to re-fit all the eye-level stickers to indicate to staff what is beneath the seats. These are all individual stickers that look quite easy to peel off, so not sure now long these will last!

 

[announcements]

Despite being a daily Central line user the Clip trains have managed to evade me thus far but I’ve finally managed to catch!

Something we keep hearing time and time again; they really are rare as hen's teeth.

 

[bramling]

Despite being a daily Central line user the Clip trains have managed to evade me thus far but I’ve finally managed to catch one.

Externally, half of one car was completely covered in graffiti, including the windows.

Inside, the brighter lighting, new floors and new moquette have definitely improved the ambience, but none of the panels seem to have been touched with evidence of years of build up of grime and vandalism still visible.

Unlike other interior refreshes, the seats are still well padded and the moquette seems quite loosely fitted.

“The next station is” announcement plays twice, once whilst you’re still pulling out of the station before and then again when on the approach, which seems a bit unnecessary.

I was also surprised to see that they have taken the opportunity to re-fit all the eye-level stickers to indicate to staff what is beneath the seats. These are all individual stickers that look quite easy to peel off, so not sure now long these will last!

What this shows is that this work really is a “do minimum to keep the trains in service”, rather than a serious attempt to refurbish them.

 

[Benjwri]

What this shows is that this work really is a “do minimum to keep the trains in service”, rather than a serious attempt to refurbish them.

The 'serious attempt' has been in the rework of the internals of the trains, the traction motors, the addition of CCTV, wheelchair spaces and displays. I would argue a project that just included repainting/replacing some flaking paint on panels would be far less of a 'serious attempt'.

 

[bramling]

The 'serious attempt' has been in the rework of the internals of the trains, the traction motors, the addition of CCTV, wheelchair spaces and displays. I would argue a project that just included repainting/replacing some flaking paint on panels would be far less of a 'serious attempt'.

The motors have been giving trouble for decades, and the accessibility work should have happened in time for 2020, so none of this can be blamed on Covid.

This all seems to me more a case of burying heads very firmly in the sand until things reached a point where if the above works weren’t done there would actually have been no Central Line service.

ISTR at one point over half the fleet was unavailable, though they seemed to have managed to keep things ticking over better since that low point.

It is notable that there is certainly a list of things which haven’t been touched.

 

[Benjwri]

The motors have been giving trouble for decades, and the accessibility work should have happened in time for 2020, so none of this can be blamed on Covid.

This all seems to me more a case of burying heads very firmly in the sand until things reached a point where if the above works weren’t done there would actually have been no Central Line service.

ISTR at one point over half the fleet was unavailable, though they seemed to have managed to keep things ticking over better since that low point.

It is notable that there is certainly a list of things which haven’t been touched.

I didn't blame Covid? I don't think there is any denying that CLIP hasn't gone totally to plan, and that financial realities mean that it isn't possible to refurbish the 'nice to haves' like paintwork. I'm not sure 'burying heads [..] in the sand' is the correct term though. TfL committed to CLIP in 2016, back then they were spending all this money just to have a programme that wrapped up in 2022, before fleet replacement in 2028. If they were burying their heads in the sand they would've just said they would try to keep the stock in service until 2028 and not bothered with CLIP.

Obviously the reality is new stock isn't coming, and Covid is a big factor in that, but if the programme had run to plan, or even suffered only a few years delays, we wouldn't have seen the worst of the reliability crisis in 2023/4. In my view TfL identified a shortfall that wouldn't quite reach replacement and invested in a programme to fix the underlying problems with the stock, allowing it to last far past the expected retirement. That's a decision that has come to benefit them with the challenges covid has brought, giving them stock which could last much longer. As I say though I can't see how heads were buried in the sand when the program was scheduled in a way that would have avoided any of the issues we have seen over the last at least 5 years with availability.

 

[GFE]

The unfortunate thing is how "Burying heads" and lack of accountability has allowed problems with the 92 stock (and associated service availability) to deteriorate to such a state.
The slippage of CLIP "essentials" development, the late additions of extras to the scope , slow mobilization of Acton Works + the lack of focus on DC motor "nursing" works.
Not sure what has caused the high level of Train cancellations this summer ??? (probably wrong to assume motor flash overs)

 

[vuzzeho]

Despite being a daily Central line user the Clip trains have managed to evade me thus far but I’ve finally managed to catch one.

Externally, half of one car was completely covered in graffiti, including the windows.

Inside, the brighter lighting, new floors and new moquette have definitely improved the ambience, but none of the panels seem to have been touched with evidence of years of build up of grime and vandalism still visible.

Unlike other interior refreshes, the seats are still well padded and the moquette seems quite loosely fitted.

“The next station is” announcement plays twice, once whilst you’re still pulling out of the station before and then again when on the approach, which seems a bit unnecessary.

I was also surprised to see that they have taken the opportunity to re-fit all the eye-level stickers to indicate to staff what is beneath the seats. These are all individual stickers that look quite easy to peel off, so not sure now long these will last!

Super disappointing. I don't think I need to reiterate how ridiculous this is at this point. If I were more cynical I'd suggest the (lack of) speed and quality were deliberate, to make a case for new trains for the Central. But I don't think that's true - just feels like it.

 

[NCT]

Super disappointing. I don't think I need to reiterate how ridiculous this is at this point. If I were more cynical I'd suggest the (lack of) speed and quality were deliberate, to make a case for new trains for the Central. But I don't think that's true - just feels like it.

Or, CLIP is a reactionary initiative once it became clear the originally desired timetable for 1992 stock replacement was unachievable, and due to the reactionary nature, TfL/LU has royally struggled to assemble the necessary resources at the required quality?

 

[thomalex]

Despite being a daily Central line user the Clip trains have managed to evade me thus far but I’ve finally managed to catch one.

Externally, half of one car was completely covered in graffiti, including the windows.

Inside, the brighter lighting, new floors and new moquette have definitely improved the ambience, but none of the panels seem to have been touched with evidence of years of build up of grime and vandalism still visible.

Unlike other interior refreshes, the seats are still well padded and the moquette seems quite loosely fitted.

“The next station is” announcement plays twice, once whilst you’re still pulling out of the station before and then again when on the approach, which seems a bit unnecessary.

I was also surprised to see that they have taken the opportunity to re-fit all the eye-level stickers to indicate to staff what is beneath the seats. These are all individual stickers that look quite easy to peel off, so not sure now long these will last!

They should not be in operation, period.

Anyone blaming delays that is due to the criminals

 

[announcements]

Does anyone know what the difference in cost is between the (disgraced) CLIP vs new trains?

 

[Benjwri]

Does anyone know what the difference in cost is between the (disgraced) CLIP vs new trains?

CLIP budget is currently £500 million. Piccadilly line stock was £1.5 billion in 2018 money, assuming same number of trains on the central line it would be £1.4 billion, or £1.9 billion in today’s money according to the inflation rate. The reality is the cost could be higher depending on the terms of the options TfL has.

This doesn’t include the cost of altering infrastructure for the trains, such as change in swept path. For the Piccadilly line this has made the total cost of the programme £3.4 billion.

 

[notverydeep]

The pandemic delayed CLIP design work and caused some components to be in short supply. If there had been total flexibility, these would probably have delayed the project by around a year. But the bigger impact was that the programme included the normal planned overhaul (Programmed Lift and Doors Overhaul). These are part of the planned maintenance regime for 1992 stock and are 'compulsory' in the manner of an MoT test on a car. If these had remained part of CLIP as previously planned, trains would run out of this certification and would have had to be placed in storage.

To avoid this, these activities were separated from the reliability modifications / RVAR works which were the key CLIP scope to be done first (by CLIP project staff). It is this separation that has added the further (roughly two year) delay as these Programmed Lift / Doors Overhauls are the main works until into next year. CLIP works on the first continued at a slower rate the first train to get the full reliability were largely already out of service. Once the the Programmed Lift / Doors Overhauls are complete, the CLIP modifications can use all of the resources and should speed up.

Note also that CLIP is not a refurbishment. The minor refresh, basically new seat fabric, replacement vinyl and a deep clean was a late addition to the scope. The remaining passenger facing changes are part of the RVAR works.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The pandemic delayed CLIP design work and caused some components to be in short supply. If there had been total flexibility, these would probably have delayed the project by around a year. But the bigger impact was that the programme included the normal planned overhaul (Programmed Lift and Doors Overhaul). These are part of the planned maintenance regime for 1992 stock and are 'compulsory' in the manner of an MoT test on a car. If these had remained part of CLIP as previously planned, trains would run out of this certification and would have had to be placed in storage.

To avoid this, these activities were separated from the reliability modifications / RVAR works which were the key CLIP scope to be done first (by CLIP project staff). It is this separation that has added the further (roughly two year) delay as these Programmed Lift / Doors Overhauls are the main works until into next year. CLIP works on the first continued at a slower rate the first train to get the full reliability were largely already out of service. Once the the Programmed Lift / Doors Overhauls are complete, the CLIP modifications can use all of the resources and should speed up.

Note also that CLIP is not a refurbishment. The minor refresh, basically new seat fabric, replacement vinyl and a deep clean was a late addition to the scope. The remaining passenger facing changes are part of the RVAR works.

Its amazing - but not unique to LUL - that what used to be regarded as ‘routine’ - ranging from overhaul and repaint to a seat retrim is now regarded as a ‘project’ rather than a routine exercise. Interesting that on buses, where the operation is of course contracted, TfL require a ‘refurb’ (panels, repaint, retrim etc) of buses typically at 7 years and can do so because there is no ‘direct’ cost to them (though clearly it gets built into contract prices). Hence the buses - generally - are cleaner and smarter than tubes. But on LUL everything is seemingly reliant on a ‘bid’ for money to carry out what in many cases should be routine works (I’m not including accessibility mods in this).

 

[WH241]

Or the 95, they're starting to look equally tired. Wasn't the 96 refurbished within the last decade?

Have the 95 and 96 stock not had several refreshes over the years where as the 92 stock has basically been left to rot? I have got to a point where even if there are spare seats I would prefer to stand farther than sit on a manky brown stained seat on the Central Line.

 

[Recessio]

Have the 95 and 96 stock not had several refreshes over the years where as the 92 stock has basically been left to rot? I have got to a point where even if there are spare seats I would prefer to stand farther than sit on a manky brown stained seat on the Central Line.

95 refurbished in 2013-2015.

The 96 stock had the extension to 7 cars in ~2005, some moquette refurb for the 2012 Olympics, and a major internal refurbishment 2017-2019. I think there were mechanical/structural works due to the cracking but not sure when this was.

The 92 stock is more varied: the Waterloo & City stock was repainted and overhauled ~2006. The Central line stock had a small refurbishment (bodging leaks and the worst bits of corrosion, mostly, and some changes to the cab) in 2011, and now the CLIP works.

So yes the 92 stock was definitely most in need of a major refurbishment and overhaul. The 95 stock has been refurbished more recently and was generally far more reliable mechanically, but personally I feel years of the maintenance budget being shrunk means they're starting to show the wear compared to their previously much better condition. Whereas the Central 92 stock have just looked (and have been) knackered for nearly twenty years, so I guess we sort of got used to it whereas the 95 is actively showing a decline internally!

 

[A60stock]

I reflect some of the comments above, I have not really understood why the 92s never received a proper refurb where as the 95/96 did get quite a significant one, despite being newer. Honestly, the 92s could look so modern both internally and externally if they had given them a proper refurb. Even the W&C units have had a much better refurb, yet the busiest and arguably one of the most important lines on the network has not....

I guess the same applies to the 72ts, which probably also really need one but thats dependent on replacement timelines - by which even, they must still have another 10 years left!

 

[announcements]

It's all down to poor planning and bureaucracy.

 

[WH241]

I reflect some of the comments above, I have not really understood why the 92s never received a proper refurb where as the 95/96 did get quite a significant one, despite being newer. Honestly, the 92s could look so modern both internally and externally if they had given them a proper refurb. Even the W&C units have had a much better refurb, yet the busiest and arguably one of the most important lines on the network has not....

I guess the same applies to the 72ts, which probably also really need one but thats dependent on replacement timelines - by which even, they must still have another 10 years left!

I am most likely in the minority but think the 72 stock is in better condition than the 92 stock. The trains are old yes but they feel more robust and the seats are certainly more comfortable.

 

[Silent]

Or the 95, they're starting to look equally tired. Wasn't the 96 refurbished within the last decade?

I’ve heard that mechanically the 95 stock is in better state than the 96 stock but aesthetically the 96 stock looks much cleaner and less worn out. I wonder if it’s the same with s stock vs 09 stock, though I haven’t used the tube for a few months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 16:52 ==

95 refurbished in 2013-2015.

The 96 stock had the extension to 7 cars in ~2005, some moquette refurb for the 2012 Olympics, and a major internal refurbishment 2017-2019. I think there were mechanical/structural works due to the cracking but not sure when this was.

The 92 stock is more varied: the Waterloo & City stock was repainted and overhauled ~2006. The Central line stock had a small refurbishment (bodging leaks and the worst bits of corrosion, mostly, and some changes to the cab) in 2011, and now the CLIP works.

So yes the 92 stock was definitely most in need of a major refurbishment and overhaul. The 95 stock has been refurbished more recently and was generally far more reliable mechanically, but personally I feel years of the maintenance budget being shrunk means they're starting to show the wear compared to their previously much better condition. Whereas the Central 92 stock have just looked (and have been) knackered for nearly twenty years, so I guess we sort of got used to it whereas the 95 is actively showing a decline internally!

Most noticeable is the 92 tube stock having added window frames as that’s the easiest for me to see. But that looks like a bigger visual refurbishment than any of the modern tube stock externally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 16:54 ==

I reflect some of the comments above, I have not really understood why the 92s never received a proper refurb where as the 95/96 did get quite a significant one, despite being newer. Honestly, the 92s could look so modern both internally and externally if they had given them a proper refurb. Even the W&C units have had a much better refurb, yet the busiest and arguably one of the most important lines on the network has not....

I guess the same applies to the 72ts, which probably also really need one but thats dependent on replacement timelines - by which even, they must still have another 10 years left!

I’m thinking it’s because the 92 tube stock needed the most structural refurbishing and that took priority. I miss the old 72 stock moquette from the 90’s when they were just refurbed.

 

[Russel]

The plan is for 96TS to be refurbished there.

By the time the 92 stock is complete, they may as well skip the 96 stock refurb as they will be end of life!

 

[bramling]

Have the 95 and 96 stock not had several refreshes over the years where as the 92 stock has basically been left to rot? I have got to a point where even if there are spare seats I would prefer to stand farther than sit on a manky brown stained seat on the Central Line.

The 95 stock is a bit different as everything is all tied up with the Alstom contract. IIRC a mid-life refurbishment was part of that.

96 stock has had similar interior presentation and accessibility work, but not much else.

92 stock had some presentation works for the Olympics, though arguably this made the ambience worse. The blue Barman moquette clashed awfully with the red interior.

One could say similar about several other LU stocks where the interiors haven’t had much done for many years. 72 and 73 stocks in particular haven’t had a lot done since their refurbishment which was 25-35 years ago.

The problem with the 92 stock isn’t so much the interior, but the fact that the trains have given trouble pretty much from day one. Unlike most new trains they never really settled down to a quiet life, and LU seem to have just put fingers in ears and hoped that the trains would hold up, whereas in reality of course they got worse and worse.

I think it’s the case that most or all LU have shown a decline in reliability over recent years. The Jubilee fleet is now regarded as troublesome, and even the well-regarded 95 stock is suffering.

The one to watch will be S stock, now that they have increasing exposure to ATO, and in particular the Seltrac system which isn’t particularly kind to the trains. If they start to give trouble, apart from the fact that they represent a significant proportion of the total LU fleet, that will mean essentially every LU fleet has entered a position of being in distress.