1992 stock Refurbishment?

[danielnez1]

I Cant remember why, but I think the bad state of the Juniper trains introduction, was a final nail in the coffin for Metro Cammel, or am i wrong?

I think the killer blow was Alstom's cost cutting to secure the orders. AFIK the French management actually had a phrase for it.

 

[Mikey C]

I think the killer blow was Alstom's cost cutting to secure the orders. AFIK the French management actually had a phrase for it.

The Junipers and Coradias were a bit of a disaster, whereas the 95/96 tube stock and the 390s were all introduced and ran very successfully, so it's a bit confusing how they could have got one group of products so wrong.

 

[Mawkie]

I saw this train today at South Ealing on the test track. I think it said xx001 on the east end and 91201 on the west. Interested people can get very good access for photos, but I didn't have time.

(Two photos showing a train berthed in the platform at South Ealing.)

 

[bluegoblin7]

I saw this train today at South Ealing on the test track. I think it said xx001 on the east end and 91201 on the west.

As mentioned by @xtmw responding to me...

001,054,076&201 if I'm not mistaken

...which collectively is CLIP Train 3, which was the bit of information I couldn't recall previous either - 1 and 2 being the prototypes.

 

[thomalex]

I saw this train today at South Ealing on the test track. I think it said xx001 on the east end and 91201 on the west. Interested people can get very good access for photos, but I didn't have time.
View attachment 163920View attachment 163921
(Two photos showing a train berthed in the platform at South Ealing.)

Certainly looks like it's had some external renewal which is good to see and which we didn't see on the first CLIP train which had some fairly grotty looking roundels. As mentioned above the 'sharks teeth' on the doors are new, also not present on the first CLIP.

 

[Dstock7080]

As mentioned above the 'sharks teeth' on the doors are new, also not present on the first CLIP.

This is the same CLIP train 3 that has been running in service on the Central Line.

 

[43096]

I think the killer blow was Alstom's cost cutting to secure the orders. AFIK the French management actually had a phrase for it.

Are you referring to “Stretch 30” (I think it was)? It wasn’t to secure orders, it was to deal with a cashflow crisis.

 

[notverydeep]

This is the same CLIP train 3 that has been running in service on the Central Line.

Yes, these additional ambience / cosmetic works have been done since the first group of passenger runs for this train. One of the reasons why its appearance in traffic has been sporadic (the current tests being another).

 

[Busman]

So basically the exterior is just a wash job and a couple of stickers stuck on (probably covering the cracks that haven't been addressed), throw it through the train wash and hope no one notices it hasn't been extensively refurbed.

 

[Dstock7080]

So basically the exterior is just a wash job and a couple of stickers stuck on (probably covering the cracks that haven't been addressed), throw it through the train wash and hope no one notices it hasn't been extensively refurbed.

You don’t regard; new motors, new internal passenger information displays, new LED lighting, repair of external car-end panels, new seating moquette, colour contrast flooring, re-covered handrails, new CCTV, replacement data transmission cabling etc. as not extensively refurbished?

 

[announcements]

I suppose we are entering a new era of whereby any "refurbishment" undertaken is never going to feel as impactful as how they were back in the '90s, when the changes really were radical. So I can see why the current proposed '92 refurb may not create much of a "wow" factor when one boards it for the first time, and indeed some passengers may be completely oblivious to it apart from perhaps noticing "oh look they've installed some screens!"

Clearly there is a list of things being done as part of CLIP, but it just will never compare to say, stepping on board a refurbed train in the '90s, as times are different.

 

[Nym]

Maybe it’s due to the fact that “refurbishment” is now used as a term for projects that would previously have come under maintenance or interior refresh…?

 

[rebmcr]

So basically the exterior is just a wash job and a couple of stickers stuck on (probably covering the cracks that haven't been addressed), throw it through the train wash and hope no one notices it hasn't been extensively refurbed.

Try not to be such a misery guts!

 

[announcements]

Maybe it’s due to the fact that “refurbishment” is now used as a term for projects that would previously have come under maintenance or interior refresh…?

Indeed. I remember using the term "refresh" for the 1995 and 1995 stock modifications / spruce up that took place a while back, for instance.

 

[Mikey C]

Maybe it’s due to the fact that “refurbishment” is now used as a term for projects that would previously have come under maintenance or interior refresh…?

This programme is more than a refresh though. That the passenger displays effectively significantly reduce the size of the windows (from the inside) is a major change for a start.

 

[trebor79]

I suppose we are entering a new era of whereby any "refurbishment" undertaken is never going to feel as impactful as how they were back in the '90s, when the changes really were radical. So I can see why the current proposed '92 refurb may not create much of a "wow" factor when one boards it for the first time, and indeed some passengers may be completely oblivious to it apart from perhaps noticing "oh look they've installed some screens!"

Clearly there is a list of things being done as part of CLIP, but it just will never compare to say, stepping on board a refurbed train in the '90s, as times are different.

Agree. Worn out modern materials swapped for new modern materials. Whereas in the 90s it was worn out wood flooring and leather straps etc replaced with modern materials.

 

[notverydeep]

So basically the exterior is just a wash job and a couple of stickers stuck on (probably covering the cracks that haven't been addressed), throw it through the train wash and hope no one notices it hasn't been extensively refurbed.

For the most part CLIP is a project about the electrical and mechanical systems plus structural works including vehicle floors on the trains to extend their operating life until replacement trains can be procured. The original project was not intended to be an interior or exterior refurbishment and did not include any cosmetic scope aside from RVAR compliance works (such as the passenger displays) and replacing the car body ends on vehicles not covered by a previous project. Some further ambience scope including new moquette (which could reasonably be described as 'light refresh') has been undertaken on train 3, the first CLIP train released into passenger service, but this is additional work. It will presumably be applied to the remaining trains funding permitting...

 

[thomalex]

From a post by burkitt on the District Dave forum, sounds like things are ramping up:

"I was on the visit to the CLIP project at Acton organised by TechSoc last week. Testing of the first completed train is continuing. This is actually known as Train 3, with Train 1 having had only the replacement traction system, and Train 2 only the new passenger info systems, as trial runs. Train 3 is the first with everything fitted.
They were working on Train 6 during the visit, and aiming for an eventual 50 day turnaround time."


And a post from xmw:

"Further info for anyone interested
Train 1 & 2 were prototypes, so were stripped down and being built into the 'proper thing'
Train 3 is heading for the South Ealing test track (Currently stabled in Northfields depot)
Train 4 should be ready soon
No word on train 5 yet
Train 6 as you said, currently in the works"


So if they're aiming for a 50 day turnaround time for each train, and I presume there will be 2 that can be worked on at once, presumably we'll be seeing a new train every 25 days. That sounds fairly swift but on that trajectory it will take 7 years to get through all 85 trains. That's a long time.

So some of these 92 stock have got a long way to go yet until they get refurbished.

 

[Thirteen]

7 years seems too long and unless they're planning to replace the 1992 stock in the 2040s which seems a bit risky given they'll be 50+ years old by then I wonder if we might not see all the 1992 stock refurbished and simply scrapped.

 

[Blindtraveler]

We simply have to replace the 72 stock on the baker Lou first and then I suspect there will be three fleets that will be in competition for replacement or major upgrade in a short space of time, the 95 and 96 stocks which have had reliability problems of their own in recent times, as well as the 92. At a time of fairly obvious managed decline on the underground, the level of investment needed to keep it moving. Looks like it might be the death or certainly limited functionality of huge parts of it

 

[YSTrains]

7 years seems too long and unless they're planning to replace the 1992 stock in the 2040s which seems a bit risky given they'll be 50+ years old by then I wonder if we might not see all the 1992 stock refurbished and simply scrapped.

I think it will make sense to refurbish the 1992 stock and keep in service until the 90s built tube stock can all be replaced by one single tube stock, just like how the A,C and D stock were gradually replaced.

 

[Jonah Kemp]

We simply have to replace the 72 stock on the baker Lou first and then I suspect there will be three fleets that will be in competition for replacement or major upgrade in a short space of time, the 95 and 96 stocks which have had reliability problems of their own in recent times, as well as the 92. At a time of fairly obvious managed decline on the underground, the level of investment needed to keep it moving. Looks like it might be the death or certainly limited functionality of huge parts of it

Bakerloo trains won't be replaced till at least the 30s

 

[Sad Sprinter]

7 years seems too long and unless they're planning to replace the 1992 stock in the 2040s which seems a bit risky given they'll be 50+ years old by then I wonder if we might not see all the 1992 stock refurbished and simply scrapped.

Suits me, the 92 stock are my favourite tube trains. Were best before the 2010s "refurbishment" anyway. I grew up playing with the "Juniors" 92 stock toy tube train.

 

[xtmw]

In simple if the refurbishment programme wasn't to happen the 92s would fall apart

I would explain further but its midnight...

 

[announcements]

If only the refurb had happened 10 years ago! I think there were plans around 2011 but it ended up just being a moquette switch and some exterior work to the cabs - and possibly more, the detail I forget. They even trialled flush LED lighting on one unit.

 

[GFE]

A lot of the "parts" of the 92 stock are beyond their useful life ie they have become increasingly unreliable and hence more expensive to run.
Associated with this unreliability is the complication of obsolesce which means faulty modules may not be repairable (ie supplier no longer supports the item or sub parts to make the repair not available).
This situation is no doubt common with many other trains stock, and other systems such as lifts, escalators, signalling, IT systems ad even your own vehicle !!
Asset management is all about predicting and deciding the "intervention" strategy - ie when to allocate money to overhaul, upgrade parts or totally replace !!
This is a relativity newly recognised and developing "formal technic" in public sectors but perhaps more recently brought into focus by the changes in financial/commercial approach.

 

[trebor79]

A lot of the "parts" of the 92 stock are beyond their useful life ie they have become increasingly unreliable and hence more expensive to run.
Associated with this unreliability is the complication of obsolesce which means faulty modules may not be repairable (ie supplier no longer supports the item or sub parts to make the repair not available).
This situation is no doubt common with many other trains stock, and other systems such as lifts, escalators, signalling, IT systems ad even your own vehicle !!
Asset management is all about predicting and deciding the "intervention" strategy - ie when to allocate money to overhaul, upgrade parts or totally replace !!
This is a relativity newly recognised and developing "formal technic" in public sectors but perhaps more recently brought into focus by the changes in financial/commercial approach.

Yep, I can remember our control system manager buying second hand spare parts for our Honeywell DCS off eBay.

 

[Recessio]

Seems to be a problem with lots of trains of similar vintages. Especially those with early electronics/computerised parts. I guess older trains had used more-or-less the same technology for the half-century before that so there was lots of spares

 

[Mikey C]

Seems to be a problem with lots of trains of similar vintages. Especially those with early electronics/computerised parts. I guess older trains had used more-or-less the same technology for the half-century before that so there was lots of spares

I wonder if they might retraction the 96s which have previous generation equipment to the 95s?

 

[Recessio]

I wonder if they might retraction the 96s which have previous generation equipment to the 95s?

Right now they seem to be having enough fun retractioning the 92s! It's good to see work is finally underway though.