1990s Scottish sleeper

[SeanG]

Hi all

I understand that the current arrangement of the Fort William, Aberdeen and Inverness portions of the Caledonian Sleeper was only introduced in the late 1990s, before that each portion being a separate train to London.

When was the current arrangement of splitting/joining at Edinburgh started?
What formations were used then, and what traction was used north of Edinburgh?

Thanks

 

[31160]

I remember doing the Stranraer sleeper and it had the Ft William portion with it up to Glasgow Cen had AC something up to Glasgow then a 47470 & 37401 turned up and both coupled up to the rear portion (Stranraer) and the the 37 detached light and we departed with the 47, I assume the 37 backed on to its bit after we left, I think that was 1990/91

 

[Davester50]

Hi all

I understand that the current arrangement of the Fort William, Aberdeen and Inverness portions of the Caledonian Sleeper was only introduced in the late 1990s, before that each portion being a separate train to London.

When was the current arrangement of splitting/joining at Edinburgh started?
What formations were used then, and what traction was used north of Edinburgh?

Thanks

The Aberdeen portion had 47s, Modified 47s and 37s with generators.
Prior to that, when there were 2 overnights a day night to King's Cross it was 47s in the Mark 3 era.

 

[SeanG]

Thanks - I understand that it was a mixture of 47/6s and Intercity liveried 37/4s and 37/5s for Inverness, and then 37/4s to Fort William?

 

[Davester50]

Now I think a bit more about it, I'm doubting myself, and the 47s and 37s with generators may have been during the early and mid 1990s, before portion working.
Think it was back to 47s with portion working, and before the 67s were brought in.

37/4s on the Fort William is right enough, it was much later that the 67s appeared on that one.

 

[Sun Chariot]

August 1988, I remember (a 35mm photo is in loft) ETHEL3 (97252) behind a non-heat 37, on the Inverness sleeper arrival. Other sleeper portions I saw in Scotland that week, were 37/4s

 

[Davester50]

Sure it was 88? The ETHELs were down south by then.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'll dig out my 35mm photos. I can visualise the photo and my grey cells think Inverness (I did Kyle and Inverness during my 1988 All Line Rover)

 

[12LDA28C]

August 1988, I remember (a 35mm photo is in loft) ETHEL3 (97252) behind a non-heat 37, on the Inverness sleeper arrival. Other sleeper portions I saw in Scotland that week, were 37/4s

The Inverness portion of the 'Sleeper' was in the hands of ETH 47s by 1987 which was the first time I visited the Highland Capital.

 

[Helvellyn]

I thought the ETHELs (Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotive) were for use on the West Highland Line with Class 37/0 locos and the Mark 3A Sleepers before the 37/4s arrived with electric train heat?

 

[norbitonflyer]

In the late 70s/very early 80s Deltics were used on the Aberdeen and Leeds sleepers - I have a very strong recollection of sharing Gasworks Tunnel with two of them when the 2359 Aberdeen and 0005 Leeds left KX simultaneously - although a 31 was more common on the Leeds.

Also in the late 70s, the Highland Sleeper was Inverness and Fort William (can't recall whether Stranraer was a portion off that or the Glasgow). The Highland was electric to Mossend Yard, where it divided and both portions taken forward by diesels - usually a 40 or 47 to inverness. The Fort William was tripped round to Queen Street by whatever Eastfield had available (usually a 27) - reversing at Cowlairs as the SE side of the triangle had not yet been built - and shunted onto the front of the day coaches that would form the morning train to Mallaig.

Because local rules did not allow trains to be reversed down Cowlairs bank, at Cowlairs a second locomotive was attached at the downhill end of the train for the leg into Queen Street, with subsequent shunting to release it. Until 1978 the loco that did the Mossend - Cowlairs leg was detached at Cowlairs and followed the train down the bank once the section was clear, but it went horribly wrong one Christmas Eve so by the time I made the trip in 1979 that loco stayed attached.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Glasgow1977.pdf

 

[The exile]

In the late 70s/very early 80s Deltics were used on the Aberdeen and Leeds sleepers - I have a very strong recollection of sharing Gasworks Tunnel with two of them when the 2359 Aberdeen and 0005 Leeds left KX simultaneously - although a 31 was more common on the Leeds.

Also in the late 70s, the Highland Sleeper was Inverness and Fort William (can't recall whether Stranraer was a portion off that or the Glasgow). The Highland was electric to Mossend Yard, where it divided and both portions taken forward by diesels - usually a 40 or 47 to inverness. The Fort William was tripped round to Queen Street by whatever Eastfield had available (usually a 27) - reversing at Cowlairs as the SE side of the triangle had not yet been built - and shunted onto the front of the day coaches that would form the morning train to Mallaig.

By early 1988 (at least) the Mossend /Cowlairs move had been replaced by a trip out to Stirling to avoid long periods stationary in insalubrious areas.

 

[Davester50]

By early 1988 (at least) the Mossend /Cowlairs move had been replaced by a trip out to Stirling to avoid long periods stationary in insalubrious areas.

I had the pleasure of sitting somewhere near Springburn/Cowlairs while all this happened, so a good move!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2024 ==

I thought the ETHELs (Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotive) were for use on the West Highland Line with Class 37/0 locos and the Mark 3A Sleepers before the 37/4s arrived with electric train heat?

They were. And eventually moved south to Marylebone, I think, for use on steam charters, and ended up in a form of Inter City livery.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks - I understand that it was a mixture of 47/6s and Intercity liveried 37/4s and 37/5s for Inverness, and then 37/4s to Fort William?

37/0s or 37/5s were used in pairs on the Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers from May 1992, in combination with generator vans converted from mark 1 BGs through to around the end of 1994. There were ultimately three 37/0s and four 37/5s painted in Intercity 'Swallow' livery for these duties, though the locos that worked the services were drawn from a larger pool than just those seven.

Prior to this, from July 1991 Inverness had a pool of seven class 47s, numbered 47671 - 677, with a higher ETS rating to work the sleepers and the daytime 'Clansman'. The pairs of 37s and generator vans were subsequently replaced by RES 47/7s from 1995.

37/4s were used on the Fort William sleeper from their introduction in August 1985 until replaced by class 67s in June 2006.

BR withdrew the seated portion from the Scottish sleepers in May 1992. Prior to this, a standard formation of the Inverness sleeper would be:
Mark 2 TSO-BSO (Seated section) - 3 SLE/SLEP - Mark 2 Lounge Car - 5-6 SLE/SLEP - 3-4 Motorail GUVs
Subsequently, the TSO and BSO no longer featured, and the train would instead include a Mark 1 BG as brake vehicle (At the opposite end of the train to the generator van)

And the Fort William train would be formed:
Mark 2D BSO-TSO (Seated section) - 2 SLE/SLEP - 2-3 Motorail GUVs
Subsequently, the TSO and BSO would be replaced by a Mark 1 BG and Mark 2E FO modified to include a trolley space.

Stagecoach Rail entered into an arrangement from May 1992 to provide seated accommodation on the Aberdeen sleeper. This wasn't successful, and the specially painted coaches were reliveried back into Intercity livery after November 1992, though continued to operate with seating reserved through Stagecoach until October 1993. A typical Aberdeen formation at this time would be:

2 Mark 2 TSO (Seated section) - 3 SLE/SLEP - Mark 2 Lounge Car - 4 SLE/SLEP - Mk1 BG - 3 Motorail GUVs

Some info on the short-lived Stagecoach operation:

Stagecoach Rail Sleeper

The three way split at Edinburgh became possible following the withdrawal of Motorail in May 1995, and was at least partly an attempt to reduce the operating costs of the Fort William sleeper, which had also been under threat of withdrawal.

 

[SeanG]

Thanks all.

 

[xotGD]

And eventually moved south to Marylebone, I think, for use on steam charters, and ended up in a form of Inter City livery.

I give you an Ethel at Marylebone...