• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

1984 BREL International prototype coach - or mockup?

Status
Not open for further replies.

timmydunn

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2019
Messages
80
Location
London
Hi all.

I've come across this ad from 1984 for the BREL International Coach. It's based on the MkIII.
But it doesn't look quite like the ones I see on Traintesting.com - there seem to be different access doors, and there's a significant under-body structure that the final version doesn't appear to have. So what is the coach in the image - was it a temporary mockup?

brel.jpg

The actual BREL International Coach was produced as a bit of a prototype - see here:
http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm
post-6880-0-01489700-1437517077.jpg


The later full set looked v like standard MkIIIs externally, so not like the above. And not with white roofs.
Lit_Lane__30-09-86_Ernest_Godward.jpg



Thanks all

Tim
http://www.twitter.com/MrTimDunn


Not a regular poster so apols if this is the wrong forum.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,958
Location
Airedale
A pure guess, but the coach in the ad looks very like contemporary UIC standard stock (UIC-X?), the doors in particular and the openable windows towards the far end - apart from the BREL bogies. It also looks incredibly long...
By contrast the prototype coach looks like mainland stock of 10 years earlier!
What was the 80s version of photoshop? :)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,391
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I don't know about incredibly long - it's almost certainly 26.4m, very similar to a Eurofima coach.

The UK profile International Train is everything the Mk3 should have been but wasn't.
 

superjohn

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2011
Messages
531
That coach looks very odd, particularly the flat sides and box shaped area between the bogies. It also looks to have B4 bogies. I wonder if it is hollow wooden mock up or just some cladding around an older vehicle?

Edit: on closer examination the wheels nearest the camera appear to be standing on ballast. Definitely something odd going on. It’s probably no coincidence that the picture has been taken in low light. I wonder what the steam at the other end is hiding!
 
Last edited:

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
It looks like the demonstrator coach built to Berne gauge. BREL were trying to flog the coach to European railways at the time.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,382
Its not an airbrush job. They are two different coaches.

Several prototype international coaches were built in addition to the ones pictured here. The biggest and least known order was for China.
There were mk2 multiple units sold to Taiwan - are you getting confused over those?
And I still think the "photo" is an airbrush
 

Grumpy Git

On Moderation
Joined
13 Oct 2019
Messages
2,254
Location
Liverpool
OT, but the Gower St, Derby address for BREL on the advertisment, is the same office I went to in the late 80's for a design meeting when Battersea Power Station was supposedly being turned into a central London version of Alton Towers. We were involved in testing on-board video systems for the trains that would have carried passengers from Victoria to the new park (which obviously never materialised) and did some on-train testing on a new 319 in the area, working out of Selhurst depot. It was good fun!
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,169
Hi all.

I've come across this ad from 1984 for the BREL International Coach. It's based on the MkIII.
But it doesn't look quite like the ones I see on Traintesting.com - there seem to be different access doors, and there's a significant under-body structure that the final version doesn't appear to have. So what is the coach in the image - was it a temporary mockup?

View attachment 74865

The actual BREL International Coach was produced as a bit of a prototype - see here:
http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm
post-6880-0-01489700-1437517077.jpg


The later full set looked v like standard MkIIIs externally, so not like the above. And not with white roofs.
Lit_Lane__30-09-86_Ernest_Godward.jpg



Thanks all

Tim
http://www.twitter.com/MrTimDunn


Not a regular poster so apols if this is the wrong forum.
Nice to see you on the Forum Tim, often enjoy your twitter posts (esp interesting architectural ones)
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
There were mk2 multiple units sold to Taiwan - are you getting confused over those?
And I still think the "photo" is an airbrush

No. See here (its in Chinese but one section I translated) https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国铁路25型客车

"Since the early 1980s, in order to speed up the process of upgrading Chinese railway passenger cars from type 22 to type 25, the Ministry of Railways of China cooperated with the World Bank to start international bidding in 1985 and signed a contract in May 1986. World Bank loan and technical cooperation with British Railway Engineering Corporation (BREL). The goal of Changzhou Passenger Factory is to produce 1,500 steel railway passenger cars with technology provided by BREL annually. According to the agreement, British Rail Engineering is responsible for the production of three new passenger cars designed in accordance with UIC standards: hard-seat cars (YZ25-O), air-conditioned hard-seat cars (YZ25-O), and air-conditioned soft sleeper cars (RW25-O) : 52 , The vehicle was jointly designed by Changchun Bus Factory and British Rail Engineering Company. The vehicle body length is 25.5 meters, which is characterized by light weight and long life. It adopts BT-10 high-speed bogie with a construction speed of 140 km / h and a maximum operating speed of 160 km / h. "

I am 100% sure that I have a picture of the coach in the OP somewhere. I think it could be in a Modern Railways Mag from the 80s. I will try to find it
 
Last edited:

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
I stumbled across a picture of the coach in the OP. It is the very first International coach which was launched on 4th July 1984. I will scan and post the article once my neighbour gives me back my printer!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,391
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That coach looks very odd, particularly the flat sides and box shaped area between the bogies. It also looks to have B4 bogies. I wonder if it is hollow wooden mock up or just some cladding around an older vehicle?

Edit: on closer examination the wheels nearest the camera appear to be standing on ballast. Definitely something odd going on. It’s probably no coincidence that the picture has been taken in low light. I wonder what the steam at the other end is hiding!

It does appear to be sat on the ballast, doesn't it?

I wouldn't read anything into skirting between the bogies, many low-platform countries have that to stop people fiddling with/getting injured by underbody equipment.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
6,033
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Fascinating pic, had no idea this was built. The UIC-style window trial in the International Train stock (not the one in the initial pic) fascinates me. That pic of it at York, on its T4s - great shot and quite a surreal thing to see.
 

THC

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2009
Messages
721
Location
Stuck on the GEML
I travelled on the International set several times back in the early '00s, during its life as the 'Cu na Mara', when visiting my parents in the west of Ireland.

THC
 

timmydunn

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2019
Messages
80
Location
London
Thank you all for the considered responses above - I am finding this fascinating. @dubscottie - do I read this right that you think the large picture is one of the ones built for Chinese export?

"Since the early 1980s, in order to speed up the process of upgrading Chinese railway passenger cars from type 22 to type 25, the Ministry of Railways of China cooperated with the World Bank to start international bidding in 1985 and signed a contract in May 1986. World Bank loan and technical cooperation with British Railway Engineering Corporation (BREL). The goal of Changzhou Passenger Factory is to produce 1,500 steel railway passenger cars with technology provided by BREL annually. According to the agreement, British Rail Engineering is responsible for the production of three new passenger cars designed in accordance with UIC standards: hard-seat cars (YZ25-O), air-conditioned hard-seat cars (YZ25-O), and air-conditioned soft sleeper cars (RW25-O) : 52 , The vehicle was jointly designed by Changchun Bus Factory and British Rail Engineering Company. The vehicle body length is 25.5 meters, which is characterized by light weight and long life. It adopts BT-10 high-speed bogie with a construction speed of 140 km / h and a maximum operating speed of 160 km / h. "
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
Here is the pic from Janes Railway Year (4th Edition) of the coach in the OP. It was launched on 4th July 1984.

Not the best quality I am afraid!

As far as I know this coach was built as a demonstrator for European railways and was made compatible with sliding door stock used on the continent. I believe it did work briefly on SNCB & DB.

International coach.png
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
Thank you all for the considered responses above - I am finding this fascinating. @dubscottie - do I read this right that you think the large picture is one of the ones built for Chinese export?

"Since the early 1980s, in order to speed up the process of upgrading Chinese railway passenger cars from type 22 to type 25, the Ministry of Railways of China cooperated with the World Bank to start international bidding in 1985 and signed a contract in May 1986. World Bank loan and technical cooperation with British Railway Engineering Corporation (BREL). The goal of Changzhou Passenger Factory is to produce 1,500 steel railway passenger cars with technology provided by BREL annually. According to the agreement, British Rail Engineering is responsible for the production of three new passenger cars designed in accordance with UIC standards: hard-seat cars (YZ25-O), air-conditioned hard-seat cars (YZ25-O), and air-conditioned soft sleeper cars (RW25-O) : 52 , The vehicle was jointly designed by Changchun Bus Factory and British Rail Engineering Company. The vehicle body length is 25.5 meters, which is characterized by light weight and long life. It adopts BT-10 high-speed bogie with a construction speed of 140 km / h and a maximum operating speed of 160 km / h. "
No. The tech was sold. BREL sold the design and it was built under licence in China. The XPT in Australia has a similar story.
 

Up Main

Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
31
‘The International Coach’

Very interesting responses to ‘timmydunn’ enquiry. Some further elaboration of the story may also be of interest.

The attached photograph, is from the original supplied by Adtranz, which still survives and is the one shown in the post by ‘dubscottie’.

This coach was a mock up for demonstration only purposes.

It had lain deteriorating at Adtranz, Litchurch Lane, Derby for many years. Rather than it be scrapped, it was donated by Adtranz in 2000 and came to the Great Central Railway (Nottingham) based at Ruddington.

Following enquires at the time for information on this coach, Adtranz kindly provided the following information in a letter dated 23 October 2000.

“Unfortunately, we do not have much information on the original international coach, but it is known that the vehicle was built to a standard UIC loading gauge cross section, and was the standard UIC length of 26.4m.

The vehicle was built in 1983-84, and was the subject of a major presentation to an audience of senior railway managers from many countries in April 1984.

The main objective of the programme was to adapt the well-established structural principles used in the British Rail Mark 111 coach to develop a modular coach bodyshell, which could be manufactured within a given range of lengths, widths and loading gauge profiles. In this way, export markets could be offered a vehicle with the high safety reputation of the Mark 111.

This demonstration coach was built to be a static exhibit. It was never intended for main line operation, and the running gear, including couplers were therefore only suitable for low speed shunting within the works complex.

Following the unveiling of the coach, orders were received from West Africa to supply coaches to CFCO, Congo and OCTRA, Gabon. Some of the latter vehicles had an unusual interior layout, being part open saloon seating, part side corridor couchette compartments. There were also elements of the design used in the coaches supplied to larnrod Eireann, Ireland, although the design of these vehicles was much closer to the BR Mark 111.

Unfortunately, 1984 was about the time at which opinion started turning against locomotive hauled rolling stock in favour of fixed formation (largely multiple units) trains, and this is why no further development took place.” Ends...


The coach consisted of end vestibule with WC, two side corridor compartments, one with drop down bunks, the other six seated with luggage racks above. Next was a buffet section with non-operational hob, oven, and fridge, under cupboards and substantial worktop preparation areas all formed in stainless steel and entered off the customer serving area with its counter and roller shutter closure. A circulation area with a floor to ceiling pole and circular drinks counter attached

This entered via a sliding glass door into an open plan 2 + 1 reclining seat arrangement approx. 5/6 rows aside the walk through to another glass sliding door into the other end vestibule with WC.

It was situated next to a temporary platform at GCRN and used as a visitor facility. The buffet counter served drinks/snacks for visitors awaiting the next train. The open plan section with original seats removed, provided occasional seating/tables as a meeting room/film show and photo exhibit boards. It provided almost 10 years of service, so it did enter into service, albeit static.

It was mounted on new B4 or Commonwealth bogies. Although not powered up, it had working air conditioning and the doors powered, opening outward and back onto the coach side.

The temporary platform mentioned had long out lived its safe working use and following the opening of a newly constructed 10 coach platform named ‘Ruddington Fields’ in 2009, the temporary structure was removed for further major redevelopment work leaving the ‘International Coach’ marooned on a section of isolated rail. Despite the best efforts of this poster to retain the coach for further use and historical interest, its time was up!

In August 2010 its last resting place was C F Booths, Rotherham. Its legacy was a very useful sum to the support charity, LNER (GC) Heritage Trust and two 'as new' bogies.
 

Attachments

  • International Coach.jpg
    International Coach.jpg
    341.4 KB · Views: 59

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
Interestingly the interior picture on that article is in fact of a late aircon Mk2, not the International Coach! :)
The pic of the TV fitted coach is indeed a Mk2 (separate article). A DBSO to be exact. It was a ScotRail experiment in 1984. Passengers could view the line ahead. Also tried on the Kyle line. Didn't catch on after a suicide was broadcast live. The driver could not cut the feed.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,306
Location
Glasgow
Indeed not, I guess added specifically for the photo. It's definitely a Mk2, look at the window shape and luggage rack.

Indeed, one of a Mk2' aur-con's most identifying features. You can quite easily tell between Mk2 air-cons, Mk3s and Mk4s based purely on the window shape (though the Mk4 also has the distinctive taper).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,391
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
So it seems clear the coach did exist - but that doesn't mean of course that the original article under discussion wasn't what would now be called a Photoshop job! :)
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,306
Location
Glasgow
The pic of the TV fitted coach is indeed a Mk2 (separate article). A DBSO to be exact. It was a ScotRail experiment in 1984. Passengers could view the line ahead. Also tried on the Kyle line. Didn't catch on after a suicide was broadcast live. The driver could not cut the feed.

Was this tried in normal passenger service? Because only 47/7s could propel DBSO push-pull sets and they weren't allowed on the Kyle line.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
18,919
Location
Devon
‘The International Coach’

Very interesting responses to ‘timmydunn’ enquiry. Some further elaboration of the story may also be of interest.

The attached photograph, is from the original supplied by Adtranz, which still survives and is the one shown in the post by ‘dubscottie’.

This coach was a mock up for demonstration only purposes.

It had lain deteriorating at Adtranz, Litchurch Lane, Derby for many years. Rather than it be scrapped, it was donated by Adtranz in 2000 and came to the Great Central Railway (Nottingham) based at Ruddington.

Following enquires at the time for information on this coach, Adtranz kindly provided the following information in a letter dated 23 October 2000.

“Unfortunately, we do not have much information on the original international coach, but it is known that the vehicle was built to a standard UIC loading gauge cross section, and was the standard UIC length of 26.4m.

The vehicle was built in 1983-84, and was the subject of a major presentation to an audience of senior railway managers from many countries in April 1984.

The main objective of the programme was to adapt the well-established structural principles used in the British Rail Mark 111 coach to develop a modular coach bodyshell, which could be manufactured within a given range of lengths, widths and loading gauge profiles. In this way, export markets could be offered a vehicle with the high safety reputation of the Mark 111.

This demonstration coach was built to be a static exhibit. It was never intended for main line operation, and the running gear, including couplers were therefore only suitable for low speed shunting within the works complex.

Following the unveiling of the coach, orders were received from West Africa to supply coaches to CFCO, Congo and OCTRA, Gabon. Some of the latter vehicles had an unusual interior layout, being part open saloon seating, part side corridor couchette compartments. There were also elements of the design used in the coaches supplied to larnrod Eireann, Ireland, although the design of these vehicles was much closer to the BR Mark 111.

Unfortunately, 1984 was about the time at which opinion started turning against locomotive hauled rolling stock in favour of fixed formation (largely multiple units) trains, and this is why no further development took place.” Ends...


The coach consisted of end vestibule with WC, two side corridor compartments, one with drop down bunks, the other six seated with luggage racks above. Next was a buffet section with non-operational hob, oven, and fridge, under cupboards and substantial worktop preparation areas all formed in stainless steel and entered off the customer serving area with its counter and roller shutter closure. A circulation area with a floor to ceiling pole and circular drinks counter attached

This entered via a sliding glass door into an open plan 2 + 1 reclining seat arrangement approx. 5/6 rows aside the walk through to another glass sliding door into the other end vestibule with WC.

It was situated next to a temporary platform at GCRN and used as a visitor facility. The buffet counter served drinks/snacks for visitors awaiting the next train. The open plan section with original seats removed, provided occasional seating/tables as a meeting room/film show and photo exhibit boards. It provided almost 10 years of service, so it did enter into service, albeit static.

It was mounted on new B4 or Commonwealth bogies. Although not powered up, it had working air conditioning and the doors powered, opening outward and back onto the coach side.

The temporary platform mentioned had long out lived its safe working use and following the opening of a newly constructed 10 coach platform named ‘Ruddington Fields’ in 2009, the temporary structure was removed for further major redevelopment work leaving the ‘International Coach’ marooned on a section of isolated rail. Despite the best efforts of this poster to retain the coach for further use and historical interest, its time was up!

In August 2010 its last resting place was C F Booths, Rotherham. Its legacy was a very useful sum to the support charity, LNER (GC) Heritage Trust and two 'as new' bogies.
Very interesting thanks for that. I must have seen it then as I visited a fair few times around then.
 

AndyPJG

Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
543
So it seems clear the coach did exist - but that doesn't mean of course that the original article under discussion wasn't what would now be called a Photoshop job! :)

Looks like the photo in post #1 has been reversed, compared to #17 - note the side livery.
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
1,013
‘The International Coach’

Very interesting responses to ‘timmydunn’ enquiry. Some further elaboration of the story may also be of interest.

The attached photograph, is from the original supplied by Adtranz, which still survives and is the one shown in the post by ‘dubscottie’.

This coach was a mock up for demonstration only purposes.

It had lain deteriorating at Adtranz, Litchurch Lane, Derby for many years. Rather than it be scrapped, it was donated by Adtranz in 2000 and came to the Great Central Railway (Nottingham) based at Ruddington.

Following enquires at the time for information on this coach, Adtranz kindly provided the following information in a letter dated 23 October 2000.

“Unfortunately, we do not have much information on the original international coach, but it is known that the vehicle was built to a standard UIC loading gauge cross section, and was the standard UIC length of 26.4m.

The vehicle was built in 1983-84, and was the subject of a major presentation to an audience of senior railway managers from many countries in April 1984.

The main objective of the programme was to adapt the well-established structural principles used in the British Rail Mark 111 coach to develop a modular coach bodyshell, which could be manufactured within a given range of lengths, widths and loading gauge profiles. In this way, export markets could be offered a vehicle with the high safety reputation of the Mark 111.

This demonstration coach was built to be a static exhibit. It was never intended for main line operation, and the running gear, including couplers were therefore only suitable for low speed shunting within the works complex.

Following the unveiling of the coach, orders were received from West Africa to supply coaches to CFCO, Congo and OCTRA, Gabon. Some of the latter vehicles had an unusual interior layout, being part open saloon seating, part side corridor couchette compartments. There were also elements of the design used in the coaches supplied to larnrod Eireann, Ireland, although the design of these vehicles was much closer to the BR Mark 111.

Unfortunately, 1984 was about the time at which opinion started turning against locomotive hauled rolling stock in favour of fixed formation (largely multiple units) trains, and this is why no further development took place.” Ends...


The coach consisted of end vestibule with WC, two side corridor compartments, one with drop down bunks, the other six seated with luggage racks above. Next was a buffet section with non-operational hob, oven, and fridge, under cupboards and substantial worktop preparation areas all formed in stainless steel and entered off the customer serving area with its counter and roller shutter closure. A circulation area with a floor to ceiling pole and circular drinks counter attached

This entered via a sliding glass door into an open plan 2 + 1 reclining seat arrangement approx. 5/6 rows aside the walk through to another glass sliding door into the other end vestibule with WC.

It was situated next to a temporary platform at GCRN and used as a visitor facility. The buffet counter served drinks/snacks for visitors awaiting the next train. The open plan section with original seats removed, provided occasional seating/tables as a meeting room/film show and photo exhibit boards. It provided almost 10 years of service, so it did enter into service, albeit static.

It was mounted on new B4 or Commonwealth bogies. Although not powered up, it had working air conditioning and the doors powered, opening outward and back onto the coach side.

The temporary platform mentioned had long out lived its safe working use and following the opening of a newly constructed 10 coach platform named ‘Ruddington Fields’ in 2009, the temporary structure was removed for further major redevelopment work leaving the ‘International Coach’ marooned on a section of isolated rail. Despite the best efforts of this poster to retain the coach for further use and historical interest, its time was up!

In August 2010 its last resting place was C F Booths, Rotherham. Its legacy was a very useful sum to the support charity, LNER (GC) Heritage Trust and two 'as new' bogies.


Thanks for the additional info. I always thought that coach was tested in Europe. There is a mountain of info here and as we get older, some stuff we get wrong. But keep posting. I love this section of the forum..
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top