1970s Train Timetables For The ECML

[Jeremy B]

Just been having an interesting talk with a friend about trains in the 1970s when Selby was part of the ECML route. Try as I might I cannot find any online timetables giving details of journey times & frequency of service between Selby & York & Selby to Doncaster from those days. Can anyone help here?

 

[Barracuda]

Got an old WTT with ECML via Selby, but it's at work (other half moans about the smell of such things), will have a look tomorrow.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Just been having an interesting talk with a friend about trains in the 1970s when Selby was part of the ECML route. Try as I might I cannot find any online timetables giving details of journey times & frequency of service between Selby & York & Selby to Doncaster from those days. Can anyone help here?

Can you be a bit more specific about what you want?

 

[eastwestdivide]

From the 1978 GB timetable, there was basically a mix of Doncaster-Selby-York or Hull-Selby-York (only two from Hull) local services and some King's Cross-York services (roughly two-hourly from the 1004 from KX).
So as an example, looking at northbound M-F between 0600-2000, this gave Selby 13 services to York, and 10 from Doncaster.
Overnight, some sleeper/seated trains to Scotland/Newcastle also called.

 

[ainsworth74]

From the 1978 GB timetable, there was basically a mix of Doncaster-Selby-York or Hull-Selby-York (only two from Hull) local services and some King's Cross-York services (roughly two-hourly from the 1004 from KX).

Would those have reversed at Selby?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Would those have reversed at Selby?

Don't know - the Hull-Selby-York ones may have carried on westwards and turned north near Gascoigne Wood.
I was surprised at the small number of Hull-York through trains. May have another look later, busy now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(...later)
the 1708 Hull-York local called at Selby 1746-48, arrived York 1817
while the 1719 Doncaster-York local called at Selby dep 1742 arrived York 1801
and the 1404 from KX called Selby depart 1659, arrived York 1719
giving times from Selby-York of 29 mins, 19 mins and 20 mins respectively.

So I'd say the Hull didn't reverse at Selby, and the KX had padding, as York was its termination point. You woulnd't expect a DMU to beat a KX express otherwise. (Weren't those KX-York semi-fasts the last stronghold of the Deltics?)

The morning Hull-York train, the 0854 from Hull, had only 1 min at Selby, and 35 mins from there to York.
Neither of those Hull-York trains stopped at Church Fenton or Ulleskelf (and Sherburn wasn't even open at that time).
Today, it seems to be about 29/30 mins for Selby-York with a stop at Sherburn, and 25 "direct" via Hambleton junctions and the northern half of the 1980s ECML.

 

[D1009]

Don't know - the Hull-Selby-York ones may have carried on westwards and turned north near Gascoigne Wood.

(Weren't those KX-York semi-fasts the last stronghold of the Deltics?)

From very happy memory, I can confirm both of these statements, in fact I'm not sure whether there is or was a signalled move to reverse at Selby in that direction.

 

[30907]

From very happy memory, I can confirm both of these statements, in fact I'm not sure whether there is or was a signalled move to reverse at Selby in that direction.

Would be very surprising if there was, as the bays at Selby face west and Hull-Selby-York was a post Beeching innovation (which also explains its infrequency).

 

[Jeremy B]

Thanks for shaking up these old brain cells here. I do remember a few journeys on a 0005 from Kings X that I used a few times which seemed to stop everywhere for 5-10 minutes at least but had only 2 seating coaches & some sleepers on it plus the obligatory newspaper traffic.All now far removed from today's high frequency service.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just been having an interesting talk with a friend about trains in the 1970s when Selby was part of the ECML route. Try as I might I cannot find any online timetables giving details of journey times & frequency of service between Selby & York & Selby to Doncaster from those days. Can anyone help here?

I have just found two copies in our loft of the "British Rail Passenger timetable Eastern Region" one is dated 1st May 1972 to 6th May 1973, the other 7th May 1973 to 5th May 1974, if this is the period that interests you let me know.

 

[Welshman]

Just coming into the timescale -

Up until about 1971, there was an interesting train which ran on Sundays only from Sowerby Bridge [dep.3pm] to York via Brighouse, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton, Gascoigne Wood Junctions and Selby to York.

IIRC, it departed Selby about 4.20pm and arrived at York about 4.45pm. It then returned to Sowerby Bridge at 5.22pm via the normal route through Sherburn-in-Elmet to Normanton.

It was usually a 2-car class 101 dmu. I used it once, and seem to remember I was the only passenger thoughout!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just coming into the timescale -

Up until about 1971, there was an interesting train which ran on Sundays only from Sowerby Bridge [dep.3pm] to York via Brighouse, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton, Gascoigne Wood Junctions and Selby to York.

IIRC, it departed Selby about 4.20pm and arrived at York about 4.45pm. It then returned to Sowerby Bridge at 5.22pm via the normal route through Sherburn-in-Elmet to Normanton.

It was usually a 2-car class 101 dmu. I used it once, and seem to remember I was the only passenger thoughout!

Bit of an eye opener reading the 1972/73 ER Timetable, eight trains each way on the east coast mainline with full restaurant service, and that just on Sunday's!

Correction: 9 trains

 

[WessexEclectic]

Bit of an eye opener reading the 1972/73 ER Timetable, eight trains each way on the east coast mainline with full restaurant service, and that just on Sunday's!

Correction: 9 trains

Michael Caine will attest to that.

Does anybody know the location of the junction semaphores towards the end of the journey?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Michael Caine will attest to that.

Does anybody know the location of the junction semaphores towards the end of the journey?

Even though the train is supposed to be approaching Newcastle, to my mind that has the look of New England Yard at Peterborough, there appears to be a rake of HAA Merry go Round hoppers on the left, having said that I would have thought that by 1971 (movie release date) the semaphores would have been replaced by colour lights but the footage could well have been shot back in the late sixties ofcourse.

 

[30907]

Parts of the ECML retained semaphores well into the 70's IIRC.

The footage looks remarkably consistent with the ECML.

I would hazard a guess at the approaches to Doncaster for the semaphores, first because it's a more plausible location for MGR hoppers than Peterborough, second because I can't work out the routes for splitting distants for New England. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

[bluealley]

I was 7 in 1978 and I vaguely remember travelling from Peterborough to Newcastle on deltic. Our family travelled this route annually to visit family. My Dad remembers that when the hst took over it made such a difference to the journey.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Parts of the ECML retained semaphores well into the 70's IIRC.

The footage looks remarkably consistent with the ECML.

I would hazard a guess at the approaches to Doncaster for the semaphores, first because it's a more plausible location for MGR hoppers than Peterborough, second because I can't work out the routes for splitting distants for New England. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

hmmm. You are perhaps correct. I'd always thought this was Ferryhill - but of course, the signals almost certainly do not match the track layout/needs of Ferryhill.

But even more intriguing, the sun is setting to the right of the track ie on the northern side.

Assuming that the shots are indeed all taken from the same train going north, and are on the ECML, this is puzzling.

I'd always thought (felt) that this footage was taken in a February-March-ish, leaving KX at around 13.00 - 14.00, eg from the light in the restaurant car at 1.30. Indeed, from that shot, you might think it was a January afternoon at about 14.00-14.30.

But, surely, if this was Feb-March, the sun would not be to the north of the line approaching Doncaster in March - it would still be to the west and south (ie left) of the line.


But at 1.46 - which I've always taken as being with Great Barford power station in the background - you can see foliage on the trees. Might even be a grey day in May-June-July.

If so, then, if those semaphores could be on the approach to Doncaster, the sun could perhaps be to the north of the line. (the ECML is approximately in a NW direction on the approach to Doncaster, before it veers due north.)

but wouldn't that make it a pretty late train, like 18.30 ex KX, approaching Doncaster at around 20.30?

Maybe the rail footage is just spliced together, from several journeys - but you wouldn't think the bother - the camera must have been mounted on the front of the loco for those forward looking shots, I'd have thought.

Intriguing.

EDIT: So, I looked up Get Carter on Wikipedia. It says: "Principal photography took place in the North-East from 17 July – 15 September 1970.[27]"

So, that would mean (presumably) the team travelled up to Newcastle around 14 or 15 July - three weeks or so after mid-summer, so I'm guess it would be possible for the sun to be on the right side of the tracks approaching Doncaster where the line runs approximately in a NW direction.
Unless anyone knows better?

 

[Bevan Price]

hmmm. You are perhaps correct. I'd always thought this was Ferryhill - but of course, the signals almost certainly do not match the track layout/needs of Ferryhill.

But even more intriguing, the sun is setting to the right of the track ie on the northern side.

Assuming that the shots are indeed all taken from the same train going north, and are on the ECML, this is puzzling.

I'd always thought (felt) that this footage was taken in a February-March-ish, leaving KX at around 13.00 - 14.00, eg from the light in the restaurant car at 1.30. Indeed, from that shot, you might think it was a January afternoon at about 14.00-14.30.

But, surely, if this was Feb-March, the sun would not be to the north of the line approaching Doncaster in March - it would still be to the west and south (ie left) of the line.


But at 1.46 - which I've always taken as being with Great Barford power station in the background - you can see foliage on the trees. Might even be a grey day in May-June-July.

If so, then, if those semaphores could be on the approach to Doncaster, the sun could perhaps be to the north of the line. (the ECML is approximately in a NW direction on the approach to Doncaster, before it veers due north.)

but wouldn't that make it a pretty late train, like 18.30 ex KX, approaching Doncaster at around 20.30?

Maybe the rail footage is just spliced together, from several journeys - but you wouldn't think the bother - the camera must have been mounted on the front of the loco for those forward looking shots, I'd have thought.

Intriguing.

EDIT: So, I looked up Get Carter on Wikipedia. It says: "Principal photography took place in the North-East from 17 July – 15 September 1970.[27]"

So, that would mean (presumably) the team travelled up to Newcastle around 14 or 15 July - three weeks or so after mid-summer, so I'm guess it would be possible for the sun to be on the right side of the tracks approaching Doncaster where the line runs approximately in a NW direction.
Unless anyone knows better?

If the film is really taken on a northbound train, then use of the SunCalc site shows that the area south of Doncaster is one of the few areas on the ECML where the sun can possibly appear on the right hand side of the train - and then only in late evening in summer:

http://www.suncalc.net/#/53.4937,-1.0897,12/2013.07.17/21:09

 

[Taunton]

So, I looked up Get Carter on Wikipedia. It says: "Principal photography took place in the North-East from 17 July – 15 September 1970.[27]"

So, that would mean (presumably) the team travelled up to Newcastle around 14 or 15 July - three weeks or so after mid-summer, so I'm guess it would be possible for the sun to be on the right side of the tracks approaching Doncaster where the line runs approximately in a NW direction.
Unless anyone knows better?

Although the action may have been filmed then, my guess is the view from the cab was stock footage provided by BR. The arrival at Newcastle in darkness shows a main station nameboard still in NER tangerine orange colour. I would be really surprised if a station as major as Newcastle did not have its main boards changed to the 1965 BR corporate black-on-white by 1970.

 

[DarloRich]

perhaps they just stitched some stock footage together and then filmed Caine on the train as a fill in.