1963 Southampton to Wembley Part 2

[30907]

Yes, one way or the other.
If they had taken the loco back to shed, they would have left Waterloo at 4.30 following the empty train and booked off about 5am.
If I'm right about the 9.30pm down, they'd have done a bit over 8 hours, but rostered overtime wasn't unusual.
Nice little earner one way and another, but I don't know enough about enginemen's workings - maybe someone else here does?

Being mildly obsessive about these things, I've been digging into the SR Engine workings for 1958 and 1962 (thanks to the SR Email Group) - the first out of personal interest, the second because it's the nearest I can get to 1963!

Engines first:
The engine for the Up Mails actually worked through from Bournemouth, came off its train at Southampton Central around 12.30am, ran light to Southampton Terminus loco yard, turned on the turntable there and took water, and rejoined its train at Terminus station.
Meanwhile a second engine had come down light from Eastleigh, worked the Up Mails from Central to Terminus (tender first), followed it out of the platform and immediately backed on to the Down Mails which had arrived from London, and worked it onwards.

Crew next:
your Nine Elms men were involved with both: by 1962 they actually came down "on the cushions" (as passengers) on the 9.30 from Waterloo. They worked the light engine from Eastleigh and the Up Mails round to Terminus, handed it over to another crew, walked up the platform and took over the engine they were to work to Waterloo.

Simple really! You couldn't make it up - but such complicated juggling of men and machines was typical (of the SR at least).

As far as the book is concerned:
1. I think it's more likely that the bullion van would have been shunted onto the train by the engine bringing it from the docks, because the main line crew would be "last minute" backing down.
2. The booked engine for the Up Mails by 1962 was a Merchant Navy class (rebuilt, so not a "spam can"). In 1958 it was a West Country, and if you want to stick with Wadebridge, it was nothing unusual for them to stand in.
3. The engine they worked from Eastleigh WAS a West Country.

Oh, and BTW the Up Mails stopped briefly at Vauxhall "to set down invoices for Nine Elms."

 

[Union St]

Hello, I've been busy watching 'steamclips' on YouTube! I'm surprised how many of the light Pacifics still running don't have the stylish air-smoothed casing.
Thank you for the timing clarification - I think the driver and fireman can both leave and return to Nine El ms in the story as a days work. Excellent.
Couple of quick questions:
1. What is the color BR stock? Maroon? (and the loco & tender were Brunswick green?).
2. Did they ever re-light the loco, or was it just left warm all day when stopped, then the fireman could shovel some more coal in to get it going, yes?
3. I found Wadebridge cab (you call it 'cab', yes?) - could the driver see forward without looking out the sliding side window?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Southern stock was green although 'stray' vans might be maroon.

Loco would stay lit all day.

Small forward 'spectacles' to see from inside the cab.

 

[Union St]

OK, thank you. 30907 - Wow! That is some specific juggling! Rebuilt?, nooooo! I want Wadebridge - I'm getting to know it now. I'm even thinking of buying Train Simulator and having a go. Dr. Hoo; thank you for the clarifications.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, I've been busy watching 'steamclips' on YouTube! I'm surprised how many of the light Pacifics still running don't have the stylish air-smoothed casing.
Thank you for the timing clarification - I think the driver and fireman can both leave and return to Nine ElView attachment 75071 ms in the story as a days work. Excellent.
Couple of quick questions:
1. What is the color BR stock? Maroon? (and the loco & tender were Brunswick green?).
2. Did they ever re-light the loco, or was it just left warm all day when stopped, then the fireman could shovel some more coal in to get it going, yes?
3. I found Wadebridge cab (you call it 'cab', yes?) - could the driver see forward without looking out the sliding side window?

BR Southern stock (passenger at least) green like in this pic
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/coach5768.html
or definitely like this pic
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/16210.html
trains to meet ocean liners (usually the presitige ones) pullman cars
like this
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/car64.html
But I don't think Pullman relevant in the case of the train you need

Taken from this list of preserved southern area carraiges vans etc here
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/car_list.html

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have gone through 30907's locomotive workings as they impacted on 'Southampton Yard' signalbox (that controlled Southampton Terminus) and it really does get complicated. The number of lever movements and bell signals in half an hour would have been amazing. Besides Chapel Crossing 'box to the north, Canute Road was a shunt frame that had slots over several signals and points.

I do struggle to understand how a locomotive on the buffers that would only be released by the departure of the Mails to Waterloo at 01.10 could have time to follow out, be signalled back onto the Weymouth, couple up, brake test and away at 01.16. I am wondering if the 01.10 to Waterloo would have to be on Platform 6 after all, stopping short of the engine release crossover worked by Canute Road. Locomotive drop forward to the stops and then released via the Up Through and then across the ladder into the Loco Sidings at a convenient juncture. The Down 10.35 would be run to Platform 4 (to avoid having two departures in opposite directions on opposite sides of the same island!).

The light locomotive move from Southampton Central would have arrived first of all and been signalled into any of Platforms 1-3. It could then be shunted straight back out onto the turntable in a parallel movement via the 'gusset' line that was inaccessible from the higher number platforms.

The bullion van shunt could still be done via the Up Local, onto the 01.10 on Platform 6, locomotive off onto Down Local and then disposed of to Canute Road as soon as possible but not actually time critical.

I make it a minimum of 14 moves 'past' the signalbox in around 35 minutes! Those doing the coupling, uncoupling and brake tests would have had their work cut out too.

 

[30907]

I have gone through 30907's locomotive workings as they impacted on 'Southampton Yard' signalbox (that controlled Southampton Terminus) and it really does get complicated. The number of lever movements and bell signals in half an hour would have been amazing. Besides Chapel Crossing 'box to the north, Canute Road was a shunt frame that had slots over several signals and points.

I do struggle to understand how a locomotive on the buffers that would only be released by the departure of the Mails to Waterloo at 01.10 could have time to follow out, be signalled back onto the Weymouth, couple up, brake test and away at 01.16. I am wondering if the 01.10 to Waterloo would have to be on Platform 6 after all, stopping short of the engine release crossover worked by Canute Road. Locomotive drop forward to the stops and then released via the Up Through and then across the ladder into the Loco Sidings at a convenient juncture. The Down 10.35 would be run to Platform 4 (to avoid having two departures in opposite directions on opposite sides of the same island!).

The light locomotive move from Southampton Central would have arrived first of all and been signalled into any of Platforms 1-3. It could then be shunted straight back out onto the turntable in a parallel movement via the 'gusset' line that was inaccessible from the higher number platforms.

The bullion van shunt could still be done via the Up Local, onto the 01.10 on Platform 6, locomotive off onto Down Local and then disposed of to Canute Road as soon as possible but not actually time critical.

I make it a minimum of 14 moves 'past' the signalbox in around 35 minutes! Those doing the coupling, uncoupling and brake tests would have had their work cut out too.

Thanks, I was hoping you'd bite, as I never knew Southampton Terminus let alone worked there!
I did wonder whether the MN's light move from Central to Terminus might have been via Northam Jn to save using the turntable - was that possible? - the timings don't support that but unofficially....

The shunt move of the WC must have been slick, I agree, but this was the SR - it compares with a full engine change at Salisbury or Exeter, timetabled 6 minutes, or the 7-minute double shunt performed at Sidmouth Junction by the train engine of the 10.30 Up Exeter to attach the through coaches which had been left on the down main.

On the question of vehicle colour - I think I read somewhere that the Postal vehicles were green not red.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, I was hoping you'd bite, as I never knew Southampton Terminus let alone worked there!
I did wonder whether the MN's light move from Central to Terminus might have been via Northam Jn to save using the turntable - was that possible? - the timings don't support that but unofficially....

The shunt move of the WC must have been slick, I agree, but this was the SR - it compares with a full engine change at Salisbury or Exeter, timetabled 6 minutes, or the 7-minute double shunt performed at Sidmouth Junction by the train engine of the 10.30 Up Exeter to attach the through coaches which had been left on the down main.

On the question of vehicle colour - I think I read somewhere that the Postal vehicles were green not red.

On the question of vehicle colour - I think I read somewhere that the Postal vehicles were green not red

Good point - I see p93 of this shows a Southern postal TPO at Nene Valley in green,
http://www.quainton-railway-society.me.uk/gsm_20_august2016[2].pdf

and I seem to recall in the past one at Bluebell that was a shop years ago (I may be muddled) - sadly pic not colour - but I think that was green - now waiting for major restoration work
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/tpo_4922.html

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks, I was hoping you'd bite, as I never knew Southampton Terminus let alone worked there!
I did wonder whether the MN's light move from Central to Terminus might have been via Northam Jn to save using the turntable - was that possible? - the timings don't support that but unofficially....

The shunt move of the WC must have been slick, I agree, but this was the SR - it compares with a full engine change at Salisbury or Exeter, timetabled 6 minutes, or the 7-minute double shunt performed at Sidmouth Junction by the train engine of the 10.30 Up Exeter to attach the through coaches which had been left on the down main.

On the question of vehicle colour - I think I read somewhere that the Postal vehicles were green not red.

My first thought was to run via Northam Junction to 'reverse' round the triangle and avoid the turntable too. However, there was no crossover at Northam to allow such a move. In 1963 you would have to run to Mount Pleasant, past the level crossing there, to achieve that, which is really too far.

Back at Southampton Terminus, unless I am somehow totally misreading the signalling plan, a departing train had the platform starting signal as the section signal to Chapel Crossing (most unusually 'in rear' of the signalbox). There were no effective 'station limits'. OK, the section was short but I don't see how you could have a 'follow on' shunt immediately. Adding in the sheer number of shunt signals, points and facing point locks to operate as well as being 'on the bells' to clear the section and offer the next train, quite apart from shunting staff having to connect the steam heating pipe as well as the vacuum, switch lamps and so forth, and six minutes is implausible. Hence my Platform 6 engine release crossover gambit.

Quite mind blowing.

 

[Taunton]

The somewhat curious run from Weymouth to Southampton Central, hand over to another loco, then go round the corner to Southampton Terminus and reattach to the original train, was also being done 10 years beforehand by the pioneer prototype diesel 10000. Shown in Diagram 4 in this link, scroll down just a bit.

http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/watexdieselops.html

Back to Union's questions

1. What is the color BR stock? Maroon? (and the loco & tender were Brunswick green?).

At the time, BR stock was painted maroon, except here on the Southern Region where their same vehicles were green. However, Royal Mail postal vehicles (basically the same with some interior adaptations, they belonged to the railway not the post office) were painted in proper post office bright red, with "Royal Mail" in big gold letters. After the Great Train Robbery this was realised as a security issue and they were all repainted in standard colours. That green one linked above is an old SR vehicle, not British Railways.

 

[WesternLancer]

The somewhat curious run from Weymouth to Southampton Central, hand over to another loco, then go round the corner to Southampton Terminus and reattach to the original train, was also being done 10 years beforehand by the pioneer prototype diesel 10000. Shown in Diagram 4 in this link, scroll down just a bit.

http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/watexdieselops.html

Back to Union's questions


At the time, BR stock was painted maroon, except here on the Southern Region where their same vehicles were green. However, Royal Mail postal vehicles (basically the same with some interior adaptations, they belonged to the railway not the post office) were painted in proper post office bright red, with "Royal Mail" in big gold letters. After the Great Train Robbery this was realised as a security issue and they were all repainted in standard colours. That green one linked above is an old SR vehicle, not British Railways.

Thanks Taunton - even though it was an SR vehicle (by which I assume you meant Southern Railway), it survived into BR use according to the Bluebell link - through to mid 1970s.

But what's not clear from that is if the BR(SR) mail vehicles were also dark red in Royal Mail livery c1960 or were they southern green at that time? IE were BR(SR) TPO vehicles subject to the 'if it moves paint it green' approach of the Southern Region, or did they have the Royal Mail livery up until after the Great Train Robbery and the policy change to paint TPO vehicles in standard BR regional colours (or maroon). Bluebell link says that vehicle went Blue and Grey as per here?

"With the forthcoming end of steam traction the cars were fitted additionally with electric train heating, and they were repainted in BR blue and grey livery during 1966/67. When BR standard stock was introduced on the South Western TPO in 1973 the SR cars were transferred to the South Eastern TPO. They continued on the London–Dover service until it was withdrawn, late in 1976."

Cheers

 

[Union St]

 

[Taunton]

OK ... we'll give up ...

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks to Union St for prompting a great thread.

Just remember that the Titanic sailed from Southampton too.

 

[Cowley]

If anyone’s interested here’s a little story written a couple of years ago by my father featuring an uncomfortably close meeting with a USA tank at Southampton docks.
This would have been sometime around 1952/53 so a good ten years earlier than the period being discussed here. It does capture a little bit of the feel of the place though...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/old-and-new-bashing-trips-by-cowley.134815/page-18#post-3399392

 

[WesternLancer]

If anyone’s interested here’s a little story written a couple of years ago by my father featuring an uncomfortably close meeting with a USA tank at Southampton docks.
This would have been sometime around 1952/53 so a good ten years earlier than the period being discussed here. It does capture a little bit of the feel of the place though...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/old-and-new-bashing-trips-by-cowley.134815/page-18#post-3399392

a genuinely frightening read...

 

[Union St]

Thank you again, gentlemen. I am amazed by your enthusiasm and I freely admit that not only do I begin to understand the bug, I am getting a little of it myself. Once one begins watching movies of trains (particularly the beautiful unrebuilt light Pacifics). If nothing else I will never add the word THE before Wadebridge and although I was a little anxious to ask, I’ve finally figured out what 4-6-2 means (I was always counting from the back).

Thank you so much for all your suggestions, corrections and generally enlightening thoughts. I really have to get to work and develop this chapter before I go out and buy Train Simulator! If I may, I’ll come back in a few months with an update – it’s as if I now need your re-assurance. Thank you for allowing me into your world. A thousand thanks!

 

[30907]

Thank you again, gentlemen. I am amazed by your enthusiasm and I freely admit that not only do I begin to understand the bug, I am getting a little of it myself. Once one begins watching movies of trains (particularly the beautiful unrebuilt light Pacifics). If nothing else I will never add the word THE before Wadebridge and although I was a little anxious to ask, I’ve finally figured out what 4-6-2 means (I was always counting from the back).

Thank you so much for all your suggestions, corrections and generally enlightening thoughts. I really have to get to work and develop this chapter before I go out and buy Train Simulator! If I may, I’ll come back in a few months with an update – it’s as if I now need your re-assurance. Thank you for allowing me into your world. A thousand thanks!

Delighted - it's (been) great fun.

 

[Cowley]

I’ve really enjoyed following this thread. Learnt lots too, thanks everyone.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you again, gentlemen. I am amazed by your enthusiasm and I freely admit that not only do I begin to understand the bug, I am getting a little of it myself. Once one begins watching movies of trains (particularly the beautiful unrebuilt light Pacifics). If nothing else I will never add the word THE before Wadebridge and although I was a little anxious to ask, I’ve finally figured out what 4-6-2 means (I was always counting from the back).

Thank you so much for all your suggestions, corrections and generally enlightening thoughts. I really have to get to work and develop this chapter before I go out and buy Train Simulator! If I may, I’ll come back in a few months with an update – it’s as if I now need your re-assurance. Thank you for allowing me into your world. A thousand thanks!

Obv the next step is to head over to England and take a few runs behind some of the preserved West Country locos etc, just to make sure you have got the feel of it (on publishers expenses of course...)
eg
https://watercressline.co.uk/article.php/31/34007-sr-west-country-class-wadebridge

 

[70014IronDuke]

Hello, I've been busy watching 'steamclips' on YouTube! I'm surprised how many of the light Pacifics still running don't have the stylish air-smoothed casing....

The Bulleid pacifics as originally turned out were wonderful locomotives from an aesthetic point of view. I remember seeing my first, 34102 Lapford, and staring in wonderment at the lines. (I never consciously saw an original MN, but in any case I think the light pacifics looked better proportioned than the original MNs.)

However, railways are not run on or for aesthetics, and the sad reality is that these locos were, as a tool for hauling goods, passengers and mail, an economic disaster. They incorporated far too many innovations, most notably the chain driven valve gear, which - while boasting advantages over the heavier, rival Walschaerts motion in theory - all too often failed in practice. As a result, the availability performance of these machines was dreadful compared to a more conventional pacific. For example, the oil for lubricating the chain driven gear would leak into the cladding underneath the air-smoothed casing and cause the locomotive to catch fire.

The also slipped on starting like no other locos - I never checked it statistically, but it seemed just normal for an unrebuilt Bulleid to burst into slipping at least 3-4 times on starting away from a station with a regular 9 or 10-coach load.

At some time in the 1950s it was considered scrapping the lot and replacing them with more Britannias, but they did the sums and decided the economic case could be made for the rebuilds.

Hence, starting in around 1956 or 57, all the MNs went into works, along with 60 of the 110 WCs/BBs. I think the last one finally emerged in about 1962 or 63 - to have a mere 4-5 years service.

The SR needed to keep some unrebuilt light pacifics because, at least until the final year or so, the rebuilt locos (With their heavier Walschaerts motion) were not allowed over Meldon Viaduct, on the former LSWR route from Exeter to Plymouth.

In contrast to your thoughts on the matter, what I find surprising is how many unrebuilt locos lingered on long after they were necessary for use on the Meldon route. Indeed, I think it is true that in the final week of Southern steam in the summer of 67 there were STILL two unrebuilt Bulleids in service - at a time when the majority of more economical rebuilds had been withdrawn. Maybe the Chief Mechanical Engineer or whoever it was ruled which locos were for withdrawal and which not lost interest from about 1965 and whoever made the decisions on a day-to-day basis simply liked the engines, and b*gg*r the costs - I don't know, it's a mystery to me. Perhaps that's a question for the Nine Elms website - perhaps one or two survivors from the old shed know the answer.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The original condition pacifics weren’t retained exclusively for working over Meldon, which after Exmouth Junction lost it’s Pacific’s in September 1964 was a bit academic anyway.

In 1964 the BRB started to impose monetary limits on repairs to the steam fleet and repairs at the former regional workshops (now under BRB control) became fewer and fewer. It became a case of the survival of the fittest and a bit of a numbers game too as the then more numerous types tended to have the totals to survive the natural rate of attrition.

On the SR the Regional Ops Manager would dictate how many locos he needed for service and the Regional M&EE Engineer would maintain the fleet needed to maintain those required diagrams. So, with little hope of substantial repairs at Eastleigh, he wouldn’t bin any pacific unless it was beyond repairing or he had too many. With the unrebuilt pacifics sharing so much in their makeup with the rebuilt versions, that was an easy decision to make.

Back on the subject of the bullion traffic, I suspect any move in 1963 might have had to use another regions van, the SR not having retained any bullion vans. I would have thought the ER van, (maroon) E16373E, would have been a natural fit, having Pullman Gangways, which would be preferred on SR.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Meldon Viaduct was strengthened in 1960 for rebuilt WC/BB light-pacifics, but Ilfracombe and North Cornwall remained off-iimits.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Which is why Exmouth Junction had proportionally more unrebuilt light pacifics than other depots. When the Warships took over and the Exmouth Junction allocation was dispersed or withdrawn in September 1964, it had 16 unrebuilt and two rebuilt (and 4 of the heavier Merchant Navy class). 9 unrebuilt (and 2 Merchant Navy) were transferred to other sheds, the rest were withdrawn.

At the end of 1964 50 of the 60 rebuilt light pacifics were still in stock but only 20 of the 50 unrebuilt light pacifics remained, withdrawals having started a year earlier (1963) than the rebuilds.

 

[Taunton]

Back on the subject of the bullion traffic, I suspect any move in 1963 might have had to use another regions van, the SR not having retained any bullion vans. I would have thought the ER van, (maroon) E16373E, would have been a natural fit, having Pullman Gangways, which would be preferred on SR.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction, choosing a secure van on the basis of its connectability to other vehicles in a passenger service. I thought a reason why the WR retained the side gangways on TPO vehicles (to the extent of rebuilding BR standard vehicles to this design) was to prevent through access from the rest of the train.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Thanks for pulling me up. I was trying to equate Pullman gangways with buckeye couplers rather than the screw couplings that were fitted to GWR and LMS stock with the Standard gangways. I expressed myself rather badly.

I am not even sure you could get through E16373E after conversion (!) but sometimes with a secure load on an ordinary train you need to get an escort into the train before you open the doors for unloading. On E16373E the load area was at one end with the staff accommodation (for two) next and then a toilet. The BR vans had no gangways, one of the requirements following the 1963 Great Train Robbery.

 

[ViscountFan]

"He drove the Wadebridge into Waterloo Station at 3:45AM. The station, although the largest and busiest in England came about by the strange extension of the Nine Elms terminal of the London and Southwest Railway..."

I can't see that anyone has commented that it should be 'the London and South Western Railway". Please accept my apologies if this is a duplication!