195s on the Cumbrian Coast

[lrbvoyager]

With Whitehaven tunnel being closed do you think there’s a chance they will shave the walls down so 195s can fit? If so surely they will be able to take over Carlisle services?

 

[JonathanH]

With Whitehaven tunnel being closed do you think there’s a chance they will shave the walls down so 195s can fit? If so surely they will be able to take over Carlisle services?

They can't take over Carlisle services without something else displacing them from where they currently work though, so it would be a longer term objective. Isn't it some of the bridges further north that have clearance issues as well?

 

[lrbvoyager]

They can't take over Carlisle services without something else displacing them from where they currently work though, so it would be a longer term objective. Isn't it some of the bridges further north that have clearance issues as well?

If I’m being honest I’m not exactly sure about the bridges. Would be nice to have some newer trains at Carlisle.

 

[Mike Redding]

They have had a couple of runs up the coast but not in service. When the ground collapsed the other side of Barrow a few years ago they took a set or 2 via Carlisle up the coast for swaps.

I believe it's the Maryport-Carlisle section that has the most issues/potential issues.

 

[D6975]

With Whitehaven tunnel being closed do you think there’s a chance they will shave the walls down so 195s can fit? If so surely they will be able to take over Carlisle services?

Whitehaven tunnel is single track through a double track tunnel, so clearances through the tunnel are not an issue.

 

[Geeves]

As with lots of things on the railway the reasons for certain things not going to certain places become confused over time. So far as I know the issue up there was to do with trains with droplight windows and the tunnel walls, so the original DMUs had bars on the windows and specials now have folks at the doors. I don't think its a case of "things not being able to fit", more of a case the clearance is smaller but not to the point where certain things will not fit, I have been up there behind a Deltic an Mk2 carriages!?

One issue with the going up there regular currently is only Barrow depot drivers can currently drive them.

I think one end could fit two lines but I dont think the whole tunnel can fit two lines through

 

[lrbvoyager]

So if the Carlisle depot is trained on 195s do you see them running to Carlisle?

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think its a case of "things not being able to fit", more of a case the clearance is smaller but not to the point where certain things will not fit, I have been up there behind a Deltic an Mk2 carriages!?

I seem to recall that 150s aren't cleared on the northern part of the line, but that doesn't translate to other things not fitting.

 

[Anvil1984]

So if the Carlisle depot is trained on 195s do you see them running to Carlisle?

Carlisle depot don’t sign Cumbrian coast, they may see them if any are cascaded to Heaton in years to come but who knows

 

[Ribbleman]

Whitehaven tunnel is single track through a double track tunnel, so clearances through the tunnel are not an issue.

If by Whitehaven Tunnel you mean what NR refer to as Bransty Tunnel which encompasses the entire route between Corkickle and Whitehaven, then it is most certainly single track, as this Wikimedia Commons photo, taken from the Corkickle end, shows.

 

[Pinus contorta]

195 stop boards visible at Ravenglass and I think at Seascale ( there were bagged over if memory serves me correct) when I've been visiting these places recently. There must have been an intention to run them up to Sellafield in the timetable in the near future as there were evening ECS moves on a few occasions in July.

 

[37069]

195s have moved empty over the whole Cumbrian Coast in the past, for example when the Furness was blocked.

I understand that they may be working as far north as Sellafield during the Bransty Tunnel blockade.

As mentioned previously, the clearance issues on the Cumbrian Coast are on the Maryport-Carlisle section. Frequently cited narrow points are Bullgill bridge and Aspatria tunnel. I believe certain trains are only allowed in-section with the assurance that nothing will pass them on the other line.

 

[lrbvoyager]

195s have moved empty over the whole Cumbrian Coast in the past, for example when the Furness was blocked.

I understand that they may be working as far north as Sellafield during the Bransty Tunnel blockade.

As mentioned previously, the clearance issues on the Cumbrian Coast are on the Maryport-Carlisle section. Frequently cited narrow points are Bullgill bridge and Aspatria tunnel. I believe certain trains are only allowed in-section with the assurance that nothing will pass them on the other line.

195 being one of them?

 

[ScottGallagher]

All these guage issues/ pinch points/ no money make it likely that the Coast will be 156 operated for many years yet, probably the last line to be so. In an ideal world 158s would be the replacement in the medium term but they cant go north of Barrow.

195/185 longer term.

 

[_toommm_]

There is a through working planned from Manchester Airport to Sellafield in September which I'll link below. Assuming they don't swap units at Barrow, it'll have to be a 195, which I believe is the first time one's been in passenger service north of Millom.

Realtime Trains | 1T90 1229 Manchester Airport to Sellafield | 03/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T90 1229 departure from Manchester Airport to Sellafield on 03/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[themiller]

If by Whitehaven Tunnel you mean what NR refer to as Bransty Tunnel which encompasses the entire route between Corkickle and Whitehaven, then it is most certainly single track, as this Wikimedia Commons photo, taken from the Corkickle end, shows.

According to my TRACKatlas, it’s called Whitehaven tunnel.
It looks to be twin track when viewed from Whitehaven station platform but that’s only because of the points which were required when the island platform was in use.

 

[ahooper99]

With Whitehaven tunnel being closed do you think there’s a chance they will shave the walls down so 195s can fit? If so surely they will be able to take over Carlisle services?

Surely they could operate through the tunnel without the need to shave the walls as the 195s were used on the line when it was closed between barrow and Lancaster without issue

 

[lrbvoyager]

Then why aren’t they used in Carlisle services? Would be a welcomed upgrade to the 156s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is another tunnel further north, isn't it?

 

[sprinterguy]

Surely they could operate through the tunnel without the need to shave the walls as the 195s were used on the line when it was closed between barrow and Lancaster without issue

I wasn't aware that they had, though happy to be corrected; the pair of units blocked in at Barrow by the Grange-over-Sands derailment last year went to Carlisle as an ECS move: That was very much a one off, but yeah, they physically fit through the tunnel fine, without considering passenger egress in an emergency.

In passenger service I believe the units have been as far as Millom and I note that "195 Stop" boards are in place further north at Ravenglass now, but I didn't think they'd ever reached that far (or further) in revenue earning service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

Then why aren’t they used in Carlisle services? Would be a welcomed upgrade to the 156s.

Cumbrian Coast diagrams are resourced from Heaton depot these days, which has no 195s even if they were cleared for the full route.

Presumably not impossible to reverse that decision in the future, mind you, given that the Cumbrian Coast has previously been a North West operation from Newton Heath.

 

[ahooper99]

I’ve noticed the 195 signs up along the route at ravenglass on Monday when travelling from millom to Workington. Would be great if it was kept permanently

 

[Carlisle]

Presumably not impossible to reverse that decision in the future, mind you, given that the Cumbrian Coast has traditionally been a North West operation from Newton Heath.

Only changed when the NWT & FNW franchises came about as in BR days it’s DMMU’s were Heaton based .

 

[King Lazy]

I was always told the issue was the over bridge at Bullgill. The tracks are slewed closer to each other under the overbridge leading to a reduced width “six foot”.

Class 150s are slightly wider than 156s and as such cannot run through the section unless the opposite line is blocked to traffic lest the 150 should meet this other train under the bridge at Bullgill. I’m not sure if a similar restriction applies to other newer trains such as 195s

The issue is Bullgill lies within a long absolute block section that takes around 20 minutes to pass through on a timetabled service. So timetabling to ensure that only one train was ever between Maryport and Wigton signal boxes would mean the current frequency of trains would not be possible even if it could be assumed everything would run with 100% punctuality.

From Wikipedia the respective train widths show the Class 150 issue.

150- 2.816m
153- 2.70m
156- 2.730m
158- 2.70m
195- 2.712m

(158s aren’t allowed north of Barrow however).

The width alone seems not to preclude 195s from normal service but they wouldn’t be an option for now as Workington don’t sign them. When the 195s were new they were supposed to be for the “Northern Connect” routes that never really got heard of again and obviously Workington depots patch doesn’t include them.

The Cumbrian line also has a number of other places where restrictions are in place, mainly for locomotives. There are a number of under bridges with 20mph restrictions for locos. I’m not sure if this would preclude 185s as suggested upthread from future use.

Regarding fuelling. Workington diagram units may be fuelled normally at Barrow if they end their day there or be diagramed on and off the coast via the Tyne valley route.

It is also possible to bring units via the WCML. A small number of Workington crew used to sign that way for that purpose. I don’t believe this is still the case? I’m sure last I heard a small number of Wigan crew learnt it?

Carlisle is an “eastern depot” from the old Arriva franchise and sign neither the coast or WCML.

 

[sprinterguy]

Only changed when the NWT & FNW franchises came about as in BR days it’s DMMU’s were Heaton based .

I did wonder about that - Wasn't quite sure where the first gen DMUs used on the route were based, though I had a notion that they were Carlisle Kingmoor allocated until that depot closed in the late eighties (Checking the ever informative Railcar.co.uk seems to support this). My own personal recollection only stretches back as far as Regional Railways North West days, which I recall being Newton Heath based Sprinters and occasional Pacer.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I was always told the issue was the over bridge at Bullgill. The tracks are slewed closer to each other under the overbridge leading to a reduced width “six foot”.

Class 150s are slightly wider than 156s and as such cannot run through the section unless the opposite line is blocked to traffic lest the 150 should meet this other train under the bridge at Bullgill. I’m not sure if a similar restriction applies to other newer trains such as 195s

The issue is Bullgill lies within a long absolute block section that takes around 20 minutes to pass through on a timetabled service. So timetabling to ensure that only one train was ever between Maryport and Wigton signal boxes would mean the current frequency of trains would not be possible even if it could be assumed everything would run with 100% punctuality.

From Wikipedia the respective train widths show the Class 150 issue.

150- 2.816m
153- 2.70m
156- 2.730m
158- 2.70m
195- 2.712m

(158s aren’t allowed north of Barrow however).

The width alone seems not to preclude 195s from normal service but they wouldn’t be an option for now as Workington don’t sign them. When the 195s were new they were supposed to be for the “Northern Connect” routes that never really got heard of again and obviously Workington depots patch doesn’t include them.

The Cumbrian line also has a number of other places where restrictions are in place, mainly for locomotives. There are a number of under bridges with 20mph restrictions for locos. I’m not sure if this would preclude 185s as suggested upthread from future use.

Regarding fuelling. Workington diagram units may be fuelled normally at Barrow if they end their day there or be diagramed on and off the coast via the Tyne valley route.

It is also possible to bring units via the WCML. A small number of Workington crew used to sign that way for that purpose. I don’t believe this is still the case? I’m sure last I heard a small number of Wigan crew learnt it?

Carlisle is an “eastern depot” from the old Arriva franchise and sign neither the coast or WCML.

Are 158s wider than all.of those so they foul the platforms then hence the restriction past Barrow or is it a height issue ? Sorry for the curve and going OT !

 

[pnepaul]

I came across this on today's BBC website. If you read through it mentions "a different class of trains" that can't stop at Nethertown or Braystones. Make of that what you will!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgln17zxp77o

 

[Hipster123]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:S01487/2025-08-14/detailed

Looks like they are testing something today and tomorrow all the way to Corkickle. All stops between Barrow and Sellafield are scheduled for 2 mins which possibly means it will be a 195 run as this would make sense why all the stations between Barrow and Sellafield are only scheduled for a 2 minute stop as they already tested a 195 going to Sellafield on multiple Monday evenings during June and July so this would just be an additional test since its heading up that way.

Whereas on both the way to and from Corkickle it is scheduled 10 mins stop at Braystones, Nethertown, St Bee's and Corkickle so because of that and the article above from pnepaul mentioning "A different class of trains" it seems like they are possibly using a 195 for this run hence the 10 min scheduled stops at the 4 stations a 195 has never stopped at before.

 

[Bikeman78]

Then why aren’t they used in Carlisle services? Would be a welcomed upgrade to the 156s.

There aren't enough 195s to go everywhere. Another route would have 156s instead of 195s.

 

[Zooty]

195s are planned, as mentioned in this thread:

Tests underway after mysterious orange-coloured water floods Whitehaven railway tunnel

How do the units at Workinton get fuelled and so forth? I guess there is some contingency being worked out of how the units are cycled through exams from now on. They'd be swapped at Carlisle with fresh units off Neville Hill or Heaton, I'd have thought. The daily mileage shuttling to and from...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Pinus contorta]

I’ve noticed the 195 signs up along the route at ravenglass on Monday when travelling from millom to Workington. Would be great if it was kept permanently

There have been stop boards bagged over for a while. The abrupt closure of the tunnel has probably accelerated the need to get things up and running with the 195s. Not leadt as they can be inter worked for exams with the other units arriving at Barrow from Manchester more easily than the 156s.