1939 Poland

[IAmJuden]

Dear All,
I am researching the outbreak of WW2 for a new historical novel and wonder if you know whether, in the month after the German invasion, trains were still running from Warsaw to France, and vice versa?

If not, how would a group of war photographers travel from the French Riviera into Poland in mid-September 1939, and back again?

Many thanks for any light you may be able to provide.

Stephen Uzzell, author of I Am Juden: Undercover in the SS

 

[Gloster]

We had a thread on a similar subject recently and I think it was clear that pretty well everything between the hostile nations stopped by September 4. I would reckon that it would be possible to travel via Switzerland to Germany and then through the German occupied areas. However, would the German authorities allow anybody but ‘approved’ photographers, let alone ones who had been in a hostile state travel into occupied Poland. It might be possible to travel through Italy, Yugoslavia and Hungary, but a lot would depend on how far the first and last were following German lines. Another possibility would be through Belgium or Luxembourg.

Getting back would possibly be a greater problem: the trains might have settled down a bit, but there would probably be even more questions being asked of the travellers. And would the French be keen to let them back in?

I have read about some of the Polish pilots having to travel via the Middle East. But this was a bit later and they were escaping.

As Warsaw seems to have been rapidly encircled, I think all would be at the whim of the Germans. I am not sure if there was a corridor allowing access to the city from further afield.

I think it would be possible, but a lot would depend on the status of the travellers. It would be a slow and disrupted journey, getting more so as they got further east with lots of checks on paperwork.

 

[IAmJuden]

We had a thread on a similar subject recently and I think it was clear that pretty well everything between the hostile nations stopped by September 4. I would reckon that it would be possible to travel via Switzerland to Germany and then through the German occupied areas. However, would the German authorities allow anybody but ‘approved’ photographers, let alone ones who had been in a hostile state travel into occupied Poland. It might be possible to travel through Italy, Yugoslavia and Hungary, but a lot would depend on how far the first and last were following German lines. Another possibility would be through Belgium or Luxembourg.

Getting back would possibly be a greater problem: the trains might have settled down a bit, but there would probably be even more questions being asked of the travellers. And would the French be keen to let them back in?

I have read about some of the Polish pilots having to travel via the Middle East. But this was a bit later and they were escaping.

As Warsaw seems to have been rapidly encircled, I think all would be at the whim of the Germans. I am not sure if there was a corridor allowing access to the city from further afield.

I think it would be possible, but a lot would depend on the status of the travellers. It would be a slow and disrupted journey, getting more so as they got further east with lots of checks on paperwork.

Thank you so much for this. I know that there were neutral (American) photographers and journalists in Warsaw at this time, Julien Bryan, for example, and even 'enemy' Brits like the inestimable Douglas Slocombe, who went on to be Spielberg's cinematographer on the original Indiana Jones trilogy. I also think they travelled by train. For my characters, travelling from the south of France via Switzerland and Austria would appear to be the most credible route. Your observations are a great help.

 

[Gloster]

I am not sure if there would be any advantage in going through ’Austria’ and possibly some extra disadvantages. Either go through Italy, Yugoslavia, possibly Hungary and/or Romania and avoid the Axis (then) combatants completely, or go straight through Switzerland to Germany. If you go through Austria you either have the former Czechoslovakia in the way or you have got to go round via the main part of Germany: either way you may have more controls and authorities to deal with.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Might be teaching you to suck eggs, but need to avoid falling into the trap of seeing the geography of the German Reich through a 21st Century lens.

Many of the borders were different to now, for example most of post war western Poland was actually part of pre war Germany, not to mention all the shenanigans associated with East Prussia.

And the Nazis frequently assimilated some acquired territory into Germany itself. So Austria became the Ostmark region of Germany. I’m not sure what sort of controls would have taken place between these formerly separate countries (if any)?

An interesting question for anyone in the know would be how the Reichsbahn was organised at this period? Were Austrian railways merged into the Reichsbahn or kept separate, and what about the other territories integrated into Greater Germany?

 

[oldman]

Thank you so much for this. I know that there were neutral (American) photographers and journalists in Warsaw at this time, Julien Bryan, for example, and even 'enemy' Brits like the inestimable Douglas Slocombe, who went on to be Spielberg's cinematographer on the original Indiana Jones trilogy. I also think they travelled by train. For my characters, travelling from the south of France via Switzerland and Austria would appear to be the most credible route. Your observations are a great help.

Slocombe was already in Warsaw when war broke out. According to a Guardian article he left on a refugee train to Romania, was bombed and ended up using a horse and cart to get to Latvia and Sweden.

Bryen is referred to in Polish sources as the only western journalist remaining in Warsaw - the IPN says he arrived on 'the last train' on the 7th, but not where from; he left on the 21st after a cease-fire allowing neutral citizens out to East Prussia by train.

I would find it hard to credit your characters making a journey from France to Poland and back at that time, but Romania would probably be the best bet as long as they get out before the Russians invade.

 

[IAmJuden]

Might be teaching you to suck eggs, but need to avoid falling into the trap of seeing the geography of the German Reich through a 21st Century lens.

Many of the borders were different to now, for example most of post war western Poland was actually part of pre war Germany, not to mention all the shenanigans associated with East Prussia.

And the Nazis frequently assimilated some acquired territory into Germany itself. So Austria became the Ostmark region of Germany. I’m not sure what sort of controls would have taken place between these formerly separate countries (if any)?

An interesting question for anyone in the know would be how the Reichsbahn was organised at this period? Were Austrian railways merged into the Reichsbahn or kept separate, and what about the other territories integrated into Greater Germany?

It's a good point, thanks for taking the time to help.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

Slocombe was already in Warsaw when war broke out. According to a Guardian article he left on a refugee train to Romania, was bombed and ended up using a horse and cart to get to Latvia and Sweden.

Bryen is referred to in Polish sources as the only western journalist remaining in Warsaw - the IPN says he arrived on 'the last train' on the 7th, but not where from; he left on the 21st after a cease-fire allowing neutral citizens out to East Prussia by train.

I would find it hard to credit your characters making a journey from France to Poland and back at that time, but Romania would probably be the best bet as long as they get out before the Russians invade.

Yep, many good points here, thank you. I might have to come up with another route, road not rail. Why do you think Romania would be the best?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

I am not sure if there would be any advantage in going through ’Austria’ and possibly some extra disadvantages. Either go through Italy, Yugoslavia, possibly Hungary and/or Romania and avoid the Axis (then) combatants completely, or go straight through Switzerland to Germany. If you go through Austria you either have the former Czechoslovakia in the way or you have got to go round via the main part of Germany: either way you may have more controls and authorities to deal with.

Thank you for this. Great advice.

 

[oldman]

Why do you think Romania would be the best?

It depends where you are trying to get to, but there would be relatively few German forces in the east. Romania can be reached via Italy and Yugoslavia and you can skirt round the Carpathians via Chernivtsi and Lviv. Hungary would also be possible but I don't think there are many crossings available.

 

[etr221]

Timetable World have the German Reichsbahn Summer 1939 timetable on line (including the International Section - Auslandteil), also German and Polish Railway maps. By that time Austria and the Sudetenland were part of the Reich: what if any formalities were needed to cross between them and the rest of Germany I've no idea. The Reichsprotektorat Boehmen und Maehhren (Bohemia and Moravia: rump Czechia) were (AIUI) not part of the Reich, but were 'internal' sevices in the DR timetable. Slovakia was a seperate country, and (AFAIK) not involved in the war in 1939 (but I'm open to correction).

For maps of that part of the world at that time, a good source is Mapywig (and their associate (?) Mapster), they have many scans from various sources - a lot are military maps, from the various countries that had interests in the area. But it can mean you are struggling with placenames in unfamiliar languages (quite apart from name changes).

 

[IAmJuden]

It depends where you are trying to get to, but there would be relatively few German forces in the east. Romania can be reached via Italy and Yugoslavia and you can skirt round the Carpathians via Chernivtsi and Lviv. Hungary would also be possible but I don't think there are many crossings available.

Thankyou!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

Timetable World have the German Reichsbahn Summer 1939 timetable on line (including the International Section - Auslandteil), also German and Polish Railway maps. By that time Austria and the Sudetenland were part of the Reich: what if any formalities were needed to cross between them and the rest of Germany I've no idea. The Reichsprotektorat Boehmen und Maehhren (Bohemia and Moravia: rump Czechia) were (AIUI) not part of the Reich, but were 'internal' sevices in the DR timetable. Slovakia was a seperate country, and (AFAIK) not involved in the war in 1939 (but I'm open to correction).

For maps of that part of the world at that time, a good source is Mapywig (and their associate (?) Mapster), they have many scans from various sources - a lot are military maps, from the various countries that had interests in the area. But it can mean you are struggling with placenames in unfamiliar languages (quite apart from name changes).

Really useful resources, many thanks

 

[The exile]

I’m intrigued by the title (and your user name).

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The French Riviera to Vienna ( via Genoa, Milan, Venice) wouldn't have been an issue for a US or other neutral citizen - Italy was not yet in the war and Austria and its state railway had been annexed into the Reich without much resistance.

Vienna to Warsaw would be via Breslau (now Wroclaw) which was then in Germany, crossing Czechoslovakia (as then was) which had been annexed in March 1939. I can't imagine anything running from Breslau to Warsaw one month after the invasion - the Polish rail system was heavily damaged by either enemy action or sabotage in a desperate attempt to slow the advance.

 

[Beebman]

I've found a 120-page book 'Verdrängte Jahre' ('Suppressed Years') about the Austrian railways after the Anschluss and during WW2 which is available for download in PDF format for free from the official ÖBB website:

https://konzern.oebb.at/de/dam/jcr:433b058e-aa00-4745-bed7-669634147176/Verdraengte_Jahre.pdf

I know German well enough to be able to have a reasonably good understanding of it and in any case it would seem to be Google Translate-friendly. Of interest is the chapter starting on P.10 'Die Eingliederung in die Deutsche Reichsbahn' ('The integration into the Deutsche Reichsbahn') about how the railways in Austria were completely absorbed into the Reichsbahn at the Anschluss. I'm not sure if any of the material in the document is of direct help to the OP's request but hopefully it could help at least a little, possibly the chapter starting on P.48 'Emigration und Kindertransporte' covering refugee movements in 1938/9 might be useful.

 

[etr221]

Thinking, the German invasion of Poland was very early on Friday 1st September 1939, but the balloon had been going up since the start of that week, or a few days earlier, so Sunday 27th August is I think when emergency measures, etc., started coming into force, I would suggest all across Europe. So travel would start to become difficult from that date - but initially would be more than closer examination of papers. But - AIUI - even then there was still hope for peace, up until the end of August, so I would suggest that frontiers were generally open (if you had the right papers) until then. And it was probably only when war came, that things came to a halt. So getting into Poland by that Thursday (31st) would have been ok, if not hassle free, which ever way you went. After then, getting into, and around, Poland would have varied between difficult and impossible, as wartime disruption and chaos ensued. (The Guardian article on Slocombe linked above gives some idea). Especially once the Soviet invasion of Poland from the East started on 17th September...

For accuracy as to what was possible when you will have to delve far deeper into the history of the war than this forum can provide.

My other thought is that - at that time - war photographers (and reporters), especially foreign, were less common, and less - how can I say it - expected or accepted than they are today; and how they might get their 'product' back is another thing to consider...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The surviving Polish military (and government heading for exile in London) crossed the border into Romania and headed for Allied shipping in Constanza.
At that time Lviv (Lwow) and what used to be Austrian Galicia pre-WW1 was part of interwar Poland, so the border would have been along the Tisza or further east in Bukovina north of of Chernivtsi (then in Romania).
Slovakia was a Nazi puppet state and took part in the Polish invasion, taking some territory.

Romanian Bridgehead - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gloster]

A couple of further thoughts from a bit of reading. I doubt if the Germans would have been happy to have any ‘unknowns’ floating around the border in the days leading up to September 1 or in the following days. Once the advance was well into Poland they night accept a few suitably accredited people, but I suspect they would be limited to what routes they could use and probably wouldn’t reach Warsaw. This rather leaves the route via Hungary, but trying to cross into Slovakia would have its problems and the Hungarians might still be sensitive about Transcarpathia, which they had only taken over a few months before. The only choice left is going through Hungary or Yugoslavia to Romania, which is a long way round and the Romanians were probably also nervous following the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. For the same reason the very long way round via the Baltic states would probably be out.

 

[IAmJuden]

I’m intrigued by the title (and your user name).

Thanks. My first book has been published already. It's based on the true story of a Jewish man who joined the SS in order to help the resistance.

 

[The exile]

Thanks. My first book has been published already. It's based on the true story of a Jewish man who joined the SS in order to help the resistance.

I was mentally translating it as “I am Jews” which seemed a bit odd.