180s - Hull Trains, EMT or AXC?!

[paul1609]

Allegedly talks are under way which would see Hull Trains giving up their pioneers in favour of 5 class 180s. The pioneers would be transferred to EMT.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Allegedly talks are under way which would see Hull Trains giving up their pioneers in favour of 5 class 180s. The pioneers would be transferred to EMT.

How does that tie in with the rumour (from another place) that says:

EMT are so p**sed off with their inheritance that they
are looking at taking seven class 180s for extra capacity and to allow
for a large class 158 refurbishment program.

Currently they are awaiting Network Rail go ahead, regarding
clearances, but also DfT approval as the DfT has apparently already
been evaluating a proposal to use the class 180s, vice upgraded HSTs,
on XC.

 

[Coxster]

How does that tie in with the rumour (from another place) that says:

There are 14 Adelantes. Maybe 5 to Hull trains and the 7 you mention (or the remaining 9 in total) to EMT, with XC not actually getting any?

 

[devon_metro]

How does that tie in with the rumour (from another place) that says:

180s to Cross Country?

Could the DafT make a more stupid decision.

XC needs more capacity, Hull Trains does not.

 

[djw1981]

Would this lead to a further cascade as ATW moved 180 onto 175 diagrams and 175 onto 158 diagrams, so 150 / 158 moved to FGW / Northern / EMT or FSR.

 

[Max]

Thread renamed to suit the topic slightly better!

 

[EE Type 3]

180s for Arriva Trains Wales is what I heard.

 

[Guinness]

How is 180s going to ATW beneficial to the rest of the Network? XC is screaming for more capacity, TPE could do with something 125mph for Scotland and Hull Trains need an additional unit. Wasted capacity going to ATW....

 

[91101]

180's would not be allowed to travel at 125 as they are not tilting units, only trains equipped with tilt and T.A.S.S. can utilise EPS speeds on the WCML

 

[Jim]

180s to Cross Country?

Could the DafT make a more stupid decision.

XC needs more capacity, Hull Trains does not.

You ever been on a HT service?

 

[me123]

I still think 180s should be utilised on Manchester-Scotland routes, and in a shared pool with FSR on Highland services. (Or even transfer the units and Manchester service to FSR). BUt this is but a dream. HT need the units more, and appear to be a good TOC, so fair enough.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Will be interesting to see how they cope on the ECML. Wonder what they'd be like with a two hour run from York to KGX..? (but then again, let's stick with some proper, Valenta powered trains shall we?! )

 

[Guinness]

180's would not be allowed to travel at 125 as they are not tilting units, only trains equipped with tilt and T.A.S.S. can utilise EPS speeds on the WCML

Yes, I'm aware of that. But surely a route formerly used by 4/5 Car Voyagers is better of with a 180 than a 185?

 

[EE Type 3]

How is 180s going to ATW beneficial to the rest of the Network? XC is screaming for more capacity, TPE could do with something 125mph for Scotland and Hull Trains need an additional unit. Wasted capacity going to ATW....

Not really wasted though? Now, I'm not saying they should go to ATW, but the odds of them finally ending up with the TOC are good.

 

[BOSCH]

Will be interesting to see how they cope on the ECML. Wonder what they'd be like with a two hour run from York to KGX..? (but then again, let's stick with some proper, Valenta powered trains shall we?! )

Hmm,adelante in GC black !! anyone from ficticious liveries on here,if so,any chance of mocking one up to see what it looks like ?

 

[Kneedown]

Sorry folks, but there is only one sensible place for the 180's to go, and that is to EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich route. Unfortunately it now looks as if this will not be happening. The overcrowding is now at ridiculous levels, and that's not taking into account all those folks who have been driven back into their cars!
The 158's are all clapped out and failing, and to be honest they're not really suitable for a route of this length anyway, and certainly not suitable for EMT's intentions to run this route as a "Mainline", as opposed to a "Connect" service.

I certainly can't see Hull trains relinquishing their 222's for 180's long term. Better by far the 180's go to somewhere that has always needed the capacity of them, and has never had it!

 

[Tom]

There is a path to run from Monday after next (7th Jan) til the 1st April in on TRUST, running 0930 Old Oak Common to Oxley CSD.

   Location      Booked    C Pw Miles Tlod  Ctg Pfm Eng Pth Consist        
73225 OLDOAKCOM       09:35            T                     ORIGINATING PT 
73226 OOC EAST  PASS  09:39                                  PASSING POINT  
73119 KENSLGCWP 09:42 09:47                                  CALLING POINT  
73226 OOC EAST  PASS  09:54                               1  PASSING POINT  
73663 SOUTHALL  PASS  10:06                               5  PASSING POINT    
73822 SLOUGH    PASS  10:20                               3  PASSING POINT  
74237 READNG    PASS  10:44                                  PASSING POINT  
74313 DIDCOT PW PASS  10:58                              13  PASSING POINT 
74446 OXFORD    PASS  11:26                                  PASSING POINT 
69424 BANBURY   PASS  12:03                                  PASSING POINT  
69300 LEAMSPSTN 12:21 12:22            V                 12  CALLING POINT 
69202 COVENTRY  12:51 12:59                               4  CALLING POINT  
69215 BHAM INTL PASS  13:11                               2  PASSING POINT  
65651 ASTON     PASS  13:26                                  PASSING POINT  
65085 PORTOBELO PASS  13:39                              12  PASSING POINT  
65043 WOLVHMPTN PASS  13:55                                  PASSING POINT    
65036 OXLEYTCSD 13:59                                        TERMINATING PT

Ta Mr Dodd. Certain passing points removed as they're a waste of space.

 

[BOSCH]

Sorry folks, but there is only one sensible place for the 180's to go, and that is to EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich route.

You may think that,but I couldnt possibly comment !! 8)8)

 

[Kneedown]

I'm a regular traveller on this route, as well as many others, some of which have been touted as homes for the 180's, and i just can't see the logic of having a five coach, 125mph unit bimbling along a branch line through Wales, half empty, while a two car 158 unit (that was once a three car!) shoe horns people on in every nook and cranny, leaving even more behind on the platform, before it starts its 200 mile plus journey on lines with speeds up to 125!

 

[gingerheid]

Is there a franchise or open access operator (apart from Island Line) that hasn't been mentioned in connection with these trains?

 

[djw1981]

NXEC? c2c? southeastern? southern? LM? VWC? WSMR?

 

[Max]

Sorry folks, but there is only one sensible place for the 180's to go, and that is to EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich route. Unfortunately it now looks as if this will not be happening. The overcrowding is now at ridiculous levels, and that's not taking into account all those folks who have been driven back into their cars!
The 158's are all clapped out and failing, and to be honest they're not really suitable for a route of this length anyway, and certainly not suitable for EMT's intentions to run this route as a "Mainline", as opposed to a "Connect" service.

I certainly can't see Hull trains relinquishing their 222's for 180's long term. Better by far the 180's go to somewhere that has always needed the capacity of them, and has never had it!

Trust me, you aren't the only ones who have had a lousy deal from all the unit swaps. The Hull-Manchester TPE route now suffers terrible overcrowding and horrid hard seats thanks to the wonders of First, who think that reducing capacity from 3 car 158s, followed by 3 car 185s, followed by 2 car 170s, is a sensible move! I guess it's all thanks to the Dft, who originally forced TPE to reduce their 185 order.

Hull Trains desperately need the capacity, and as far as I know, the deal is done for 2 180s to move there in the near future. As you say though, I can't see the 222s going anywhere. I don't see how 5 car 180s are suitable for Liverpool-Norwich. 125mph? For about 15 miles or so! And I can't see them filling 5 cars on that route, especially beyond Sheffield (where a decent service is already provided by TPE). I agree, improvements are needed, but 180s are not the answer in my opinion.

 

[Kneedown]

I don't see how 5 car 180s are suitable for Liverpool-Norwich. 125mph? For about 15 miles or so!

Thats 15miles more than they'd get if they went to ATW.
You also have to take into account the fact that 180's are allowed to take higher "HST differential" speeds, which the 170's were allowed to take, but 158's are not. This means higher speeds are attainable from Dore to Clay X, and down to Derby if running that way.

And I can't see them filling 5 cars on that route, especially beyond Sheffield (where a decent service is already provided by TPE). I agree, improvements are needed, but 180s are not the answer in my opinion.

Nottingham to Liverpool is by far the busiest part of the route, and 4 coaches, when you're fortunate enough to get them, is barely enough to cope in the mornings and mid afternoon onwards. There's a lot of luggage that accompanies a lot of these passengers who are travelling to or from 6 airports on the route, or are students from 6 major universities with lots of baggage. Thats not even considering all those who have been driven back into their cars through desparation, nor taking future growth into account.
Trust me, 5 coaches would be filled no problem!

 

[Tom]

Nottingham to Liverpool is by far the busiest part of the route, and 4 coaches, when you're fortunate enough to get them, is barely enough to cope in the mornings and mid afternoon onwards. There's a lot of luggage that accompanies a lot of these passengers who are travelling to or from 6 airports on the route, or are students from 6 major universities with lots of baggage. Thats not even considering all those who have been driven back into their cars through desparation, nor taking future growth into account.
Trust me, 5 coaches would be filled no problem!

I can see your point - but a lot of routes are in need of extra capacity. There may be some reason the 180s can't operate the route (clearance?) - hence why it's not been considered. For instance, the FGW Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour route is in dire need of at least 4 coaches on every service - but it won't happen.

 

[Kneedown]

I can see your point - but a lot of routes are in need of extra capacity. There may be some reason the 180s can't operate the route (clearance?)

I can appreciate that lots of routes are in need extra coaches, but you can't blame me for bringing awareness to the routes that concern me directly. EMT has taken a lot of flak, both in and out of the media, for this overcrowding, as did Central trains before it. It's high time something was done to alleviate the problem once and for all. A long term solution instead of wasting money on ever more knackered 158's, which however prettily they are painted, however nice the seat covers are, are still just 158's.

To establish clearances a test run would have to be made. This has not taken place with a 180, though a 222 went to Liverpool on test a couple of weeks ago, with a view to sending one up on weekends and bank holidays as these are the only times there are any spare, but the extra capacity is needed daily, and there aren't enough 222's in the world for that.

 

[djw1981]

If MML have a spare HST, can that not step up to 222 duties, and free a 222 for the peak runs? If HT get some 180's and can cascade another unit or 2 to EMT, that would give possibly 2 or 3 peak time diagrams on 222's. Then when GC get their polaris stock, Stagecoash / ROSCO could buy the GC HSTs to go to MMl, cascading further 222's to this route.

 

[BOSCH]

Then when GC get their polaris stock, Stagecoash / ROSCO could buy the GC HSTs to go to MMl, cascading further 222's to this route.

Nobody is getting their hands on "my" Valentas matey !!!!

 

[37402]

Word reaches me that some (180s that is) may find there way onto another route/franchise in addition to the ones mentioned also...the clues are in this thread but you will have to put 2 and 2 together.

 

[Max]

If MML have a spare HST, can that not step up to 222 duties, and free a 222 for the peak runs? If HT get some 180's and can cascade another unit or 2 to EMT, that would give possibly 2 or 3 peak time diagrams on 222's. Then when GC get their polaris stock, Stagecoash / ROSCO could buy the GC HSTs to go to MMl, cascading further 222's to this route.

Hull Trains are not going to give up their 222s! Didn't they spend a fortune on having them built? EMT would be better off using their HST fleet more effectively and cascading some 5 car 222s for the Liverpool route. This would make far more sense. Sadly it will probably never happen.

Another suggestion - how about 67+mk2s/mk3s+DVT? The 67s don't have a great deal of uses at the moment, and there must be loads of coaches lying around.

 

[me123]

How many will be spare. however, when Wrexham & Shropshire get going?