180's for store?

[djw1981]

Never had the joys of a 175 or 180.

HST seats are the nicest IMO.

 

[Gizmogle]

Well, of course, but now they're all getting refurbished

175s are quite nice. Again, an improvment on the 185 in my opinion.
I've only been on a 180 once, (and I slept through most of that) but from what I remmeber, they were very comfortable.

 

[djw1981]

Refurbed NXEC HST's are nice

 

[Gizmogle]

Yes, but they still don't compare.

 

[Tom]

Grand Central HST anyone...?

 

[Mintona]

FGW refurbs are lush! At last, modern looking sets.

 

[Gizmogle]

Modern, but not that comfortable. I still much prefer the original HST seats. Apart from those big fixed arm rests.

 

[djw1981]

Apparently some recent NX refurbs have fixed handrests agin... interested to see...

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

You Might Think That, But I Couldn't Possibly Comment

 

[Kneedown]

Well, that's true. (I've used that service before. Ouch) But the 158s don't service it badly. It'd be worse with 185s on!

The SWT 158s are really nice, they have a nice, clean atmosphere and the seats are massive. The only problem is, the amount of seats. EMT don't need 180s, they just need more seats.
If they just couple up more 158s on the busy services, they'd be fine... but then I don't know how many they just have lying around, if any.

TPE however, shouldn't be using 185s upto Scotland. They're small, crowded, uncomfortable, and just don't give the feel of an intercity train. 180s would be much more suited to TPE and Scotland.

The 158's are terrible! Although they were designed as an "Express Sprinter", they are not suited to a route as long as, or as busy as Liverpool Norwich. It's equivalent to driving a 1.0 litre Ford Fiesta across the country on a daily basis. It'll do the job, but not very comfortably, and very soon it'll be clapped out! There just arent enough 158's available to couple in pairs on every service either, and every single Liverpool does need four coaches. It's a major route, serving six major universities, four major cities, and five international airports, and thats before you take the commuters into account. A major long distance route like this warrants something a lot better than two sprinters coupled up.
I disagree that the SWT 158's are any better. They certainly look pretty after a new coat of paint, and with new seat covers and carpets, but these additions don't make the units any quicker or any more reliable. We've got two on EMT at the minute, and although nice looking, they are certainly no better than any of the others we've got, indeed they are quite sluggish compared to the ex-TPE's.
It is also likely that in the future, Notwork Rail will insist upon passenger trains on the ECML being capable of higher speeds approaching linespeed, to enable greater capacity. EMT want the Norwich's to continue to be routed via Grantham, as opposed to via Oakham, so something faster than 158's will be neccessary if this is to be achieved.
Of course, at this point the main consideration is the overcrowding, and i can see no other suitable alternative to the 180's. Hull trains will certainly not give up their 222's, and i'm sure they'll hand the two 180's back once their damaged 222 is finally back on the road. There is certainly more of a case to send them to EMT than ATW. I can see a case for some going to TPE for the Scotland routes, even if they won't be permitted to do 125mph (tilting trains only) but surely they won't need all 14.
How many daily Scottish services do TPE run? What about seven 180's to each franchise?

 

[Tom]

Kneedown, the SWT 158s (when based down south) are actually very different to most other fleets of 158s. Primarily due to the reliability factor, and that's the same reason why SWT sent the 170s to TPE - in order to have a larger 158 fleet.

 

[Jord]

Out of interest, has anybody travelled on the TPE Scotland services yet? How are they coping in terms of capacity?

I done Carlisle - Edinburgh on one and thought it was fine, not the best seats to sit on but still clean, not too busy so i thought it was fine, rather a 185 to a Voyager anyway.

 

[Mintona]

Modern, but not that comfortable. I still much prefer the original HST seats. Apart from those big fixed arm rests.

Actualy, I think they're very comfortable - and being tall, they are one of the only trains I can sit forward on and have legroom. On 220/221s, 158s, 170s, un-refurbed HSTs and many other DMUs/EMUs I have to sit sideways and take up two seats or sit bolt upright. Only on 175/180s, refurbed HSTs and 222s can I sit normally and relax.

 

[Philip]

I agree, TPE should get some.
185s in my opinion are not suited to those longer journeys. They're always so full and have those thin, uncomfortable seats. I did Manchester to Newcastle in one. Never again. Ugh.

EMT don't really need them. They've got HSTs and Meridians already. There's nothing wrong with a few 158s and 153s on the shorter and less busy routes. The SWT 158s are much more pleasant than 185s if you ask me.

They do get full but then that's to be expected on TPE - North West, North and South are all busy even during the day. TP wanted more than 51 to double up the busier services, not their fault the original order was rejected.

On the plus side there's plenty of standing room by the doors and so providing people move down the train, you shouldn't be too squashed even if you have to stand. They're new and so they won't feel especially friendly and comfy - but then the 175s were the same when they were new, but now they've had a bit of 'wear', the seats are more comfy and the ambience more forgiving. Leg room and seat-window alignment is excellent and both classes.

185s are fresh and airy - ideal for summer, allowing a bit of air into the compartment when those doors open, compared to a stuffy 158 on a hot day.

I haven't travelled on a 180 yet, but having read they're like the 175s inside - that should give TPE a strong fleet. High speed, longer intercity trains for the longest and busiest journeys, with semi-intercity trains (185s and 170s) for the medium distance or quieter services.

7 would be enough for most of the Airport-Scotland services and I agree the rest should go to EMT, to give the Liverpool-Norwich service the intercity train it deserves.

I am biased towards the 185s yes, but they're probably the main class serving Manchester now so I see a lot of them and they do look and sound good (especially when they're thrashed).

 

[Kneedown]

Kneedown, the SWT 158s (when based down south) are actually very different to most other fleets of 158s. Primarily due to the reliability factor, and that's the same reason why SWT sent the 170s to TPE - in order to have a larger 158 fleet.

I'm afraid i can't comment on the reliability factor down south. I can, however, comment on the reliability factor on EMT, and the fact is the reliability of the 158's leaves a very great deal to be desired, it matters not whether it's painted in green, purple, silver, or indeed SWT colours (890 has a bad leak in the roof!) Maybe our units get thrashed a lot more up here, maybe our maintenence staff aren't up to scratch, maybe the units just don't like the weather, who knows, but that is the situation. The fact is, even if you put reliability aside, the performance of the 158 is woefully lacking on a hilly route like the Liverpool run, and the cabs are far too small and uncomfortable for a six hour round trip, especially when you consider that the turnround time at Liverpool barely leaves you enough time the visit the little boys room and mash a cuppa (not at the same time i hasten to add!) let alone stretch your legs, and thats if you're running on time! It was great when we had the 170's, as although they were'nt the ideal unit, they were at least comfortable for the crews. We seem to have taken a step backwards with the new franchise, so whats so wrong with taking another step forwards?

 

[support-uk-rail]

EDIT: Found timings, but does anybody know if they are going there under there own power or being loco hauled?

Maybe a question for the expertise in this forum of which I am a stranger!
Why is it that so often, during depot transfers etc, trains are loco-hauled, why not run under own power? I'm flicking through my fave pic book, the power of the hst's, and the so many haulings by other locos, I can understand if one's broke down or whatever, but, why, if in working condition, be hauled by a loco, that is often older than itself???????????

 

[matt]

The HST power cars were dragged to Brush as I don't think FGW drivers sign the route to Loughborough and Cotswold Rail drivers don't have HST with ATP traction knowledge so they have to be dragged

 

[support-uk-rail]

oh ok thanks