1803 London Kings Cross to Skipton

[The Rattler]

Evening all,

I've now been taking the about train daily for the last six weeks.

Disclaimer time - I'm not at all having a moan in the below - I am purely interested if anyone could add any further comments / context in terms of the performance of this particular service. I guess like most things these days, there is no leeway in the timetables to absorb even minimal delays.

To help pass the time between London and Peterborough I've started to try and work out what delays the service pretty much on a daily basis.

From what I can work out there are two main culprits that cause the delays to my particular service between London and Stevenage, which appear to be the:

• 1754 Kings Cross to Baldock
• 1625 Horsham to Peterborough

In addition to the above an almost daily occurrence is coming to a short pause outside of Peterborough before we enter the station, however I'm struggling to work out why this is.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to any further insight

 

[bramling]

Evening all,

I've now been taking the about train daily for the last six weeks.

Disclaimer time - I'm not at all having a moan in the below - I am purely interested if anyone could add any further comments / context in terms of the performance of this particular service. I guess like most things these days, there is no leeway in the timetables to absorb even minimal delays.

To help pass the time between London and Peterborough I've started to try and work out what delays the service pretty much on a daily basis.

From what I can work out there are two main culprits that cause the delays to my particular service between London and Stevenage, which appear to be the:

• 1754 Kings Cross to Baldock
• 1625 Horsham to Peterborough

In addition to the above an almost daily occurrence is coming to a short pause outside of Peterborough before we enter the station, however I'm struggling to work out why this is.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to any further insight

The Baldock service shouldn't in itself be causing a problem as it will normally be expected to depart King's Cross right time. The most likely culprit is the Horsham-Peterborough - a few minutes late and it will delay the Baldock service at Finsbury Park, more than a few minutes late and the Baldock service will go in front of it and the Peterborough will then delay anything on the down fast line behind it.

The problem is that if the Peterborough delays the Baldock then the delayed Baldock will cause a disproportionate effect because of its Welwyn North call. These services really would better run fast to Knebworth (the later evening XX54 services do), however apparently that's politically unacceptable.

To sum up in one word - ThamesLink/.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect it is only going to get worse south of Peterborough as all Thameslink services will get a class 9 headcode. I am not sure if LNER will care much either as I have noticed that the train mainly arrives at its destination on time. People wanting to change at Newark on the 1935 Cleethorpes service may not be as impressed as looking at the delay incurred normally it will make the connection very tight if not miss it altogether. Will LNER care about about a sprinter full of passengers (probably not as hopefully GTR gets the bill)

I always used to find the 1700 Kings Cross - Edinburgh frustrating when I used it often as the XC service always delayed it out of York. It arrived at Edinburgh within 10 minutes so it was a pass put as I was travelling beyond Edinburgh and missed my connection I was always praying the XC was so late we could get out ahead of it. The GTR crowding unfortunatley you are not likely to be able to escape. I was amazed when I saw the timetable network rail agreed to it. The Welwyn North stops I expected would impact the performance of the rest of the ECML. Having 4tph on the biggest bottle neck of the ECML seems crazy - but they have done it and stuff on-time performance.

 

[bramling]

The GTR crowding unfortunatley you are not likely to be able to escape. I was amazed when I saw the timetable network rail agreed to it. The Welwyn North stops I expected would impact the performance of the rest of the ECML. Having 4tph on the biggest bottle neck of the ECML seems crazy - but they have done it and stuff on-time performance.

Well of course. The Thameslink Programme delusionists said it would all work just fine. To be fair, the Welwyn North call on the Baldock service isn't really the root cause of the problem, as if the services around it ran to time then there wouldn't be a problem. However because we now have 3tph, soon to be 4tph, ultimately 8tph, now arriving onto the GN network at effectively random times off the southern region then the pack of cards starts to fall very quickly.

 

[Ken H]

Well of course. The Thameslink Programme delusionists said it would all work just fine. To be fair, the Welwyn North call on the Baldock service isn't really the root cause of the problem, as if the services around it ran to time then there wouldn't be a problem. However because we now have 3tph, soon to be 4tph, ultimately 8tph, now arriving onto the GN network at effectively random times off the southern region then the pack of cards starts to fall very quickly.

mix that in with up trains coming from Aberdeen, Inverness, Skipton, hull, Sunderland etc and it wont go well. and you have the ability now to transmit delays from GN to the midland.
Running an intensive service through the core could work if the outer bits had their own dedicated tracks. Which is why TfL railways are mostly not connected to Network Rail

 

[Failed Unit]

Well of course. The Thameslink Programme delusionists said it would all work just fine. To be fair, the Welwyn North call on the Baldock service isn't really the root cause of the problem, as if the services around it ran to time then there wouldn't be a problem. However because we now have 3tph, soon to be 4tph, ultimately 8tph, now arriving onto the GN network at effectively random times off the southern region then the pack of cards starts to fall very quickly.

Yeah, The Baldock service seems ok. The ones that stop on the Kings Cross - Cambridge ones are not even with the long dwell at WGC. The circle of following a late running Moorgate service, which in turn delays the Cambridge - London on its return and the circle goes on. You often also get these caught up in the Horsham - Peterborough delays as the stopper has to wait outseife Alexandra Palace for the path from the Cambridge. This delay then causes the following London KX - WGC to catch up with it and we have the snowball building (before the delayed London - Cambridge service obstructs the flyover at Welwyn North) - As we all know it is far too fragile and as you say that is before they go through the core.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Skipton has recovery time approaching Welwyn North and Peterborough, and when all is running to time you would experience this as slowing down seemingly unnecessarily. At Peterborough, the ‘pause’ may also be approach control off the Down main into platform 4; however much more likely is that the 1845 to Norwich is departing plat 4 whilst the Skipton is through Fletton Jn 1 mile south at 1847 (before recovery time), so the driver will be receiving restrictive signals, and be expecting a red at the home signal.

 

[The Rattler]

Thank you all - very interesting reading your replies

It does lead to a another question though. Why does the Liverpool - Norwich train use platform 4 at Peterborough. I thought that's why platform 6 & 7 were built.

Also is there a speed restriction near Welwyn Garden City at the moment?

 

[Ianno87]

Thank you all - very interesting reading your replies

It does lead to a another question though. Why does the Liverpool - Norwich train use platform 4 at Peterborough. I thought that's why platform 6 & 7 were built.

-You can't get to P7 from Grantham
-P6 has a freight path standing in it
-P5 has a Down Leeds train in it (which departs Slow Line to be parallel to the Liverpool arriving in P4)

 

[Iskra]

Does this service ever produce a class 90 or is it always 91/HST?

 

[Failed Unit]

Thank you all - very interesting reading your replies

It does lead to a another question though. Why does the Liverpool - Norwich train use platform 4 at Peterborough. I thought that's why platform 6 & 7 were built.

Also is there a speed restriction near Welwyn Garden City at the moment?

Yes one just north of the station, I think it is 80mph at the moment but was much lower. Sure we also have one near Potters Bar.

 

[bramling]

Yes one just north of the station, I think it is 80mph at the moment but was much lower. Sure we also have one near Potters Bar.

There’s been a few TSRs on the down fast this week. I forget exactly where and when, however certainly one was or is 80 mph on the down fast at the country end of Welwyn GC.

Travelling home with a friend on 1R66 all week, virtually every day we had the journey punctuated by the usual slowing from Holloway to Finsbury Park - due to the late-running Horsham-Peterborough ShamblesLink/ service. Not having been a regular user of the service since May (and indeed not really aware of what has changed), he commented on how the train “used to go straight from A to B, now it seems to slow down and speed up all the time”. Quite so - even at 2200 in the evening the service can’t deliver run times achieved in the early 90s with 317s - a sad state of affairs.

 

[Ianno87]

1R66 this week

Monday: Right time or early throughout
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/17/advanced

Tuesday: 1 late throughout
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/18/advanced

Wednesday: Lost first minute after Finsbury Park (could be knock on from other ECML services, not necessarily the Horsham), 2 late by Knebworth, (then tecovered)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/19/advanced

Thursday
Granted, lost 1-2 minutes through Finsbury Park, but then recovered
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/20/advanced

Friday
Like Wednesday, started losing time after Finsbury Park, not before
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/21/advanced

Is reality actually a bit rosier than the gloom you repeatedly post on here? In all cases above, right time running was recovered by Hitchin or Letchworth.

Had a return from Cambridge to Blackfriars (direct) and back on Thursday, returning about the same time as 1R65. Right time throughout, both ways.

 

[bramling]

1R66 this week

Monday: Right time or early throughout
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/17/advanced

Tuesday: 1 late throughout
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/18/advanced

Wednesday: Lost first minute after Finsbury Park (could be knock on from other ECML services, not necessarily the Horsham), 2 late by Knebworth, (then tecovered)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/19/advanced

Thursday
Granted, lost 1-2 minutes through Finsbury Park, but then recovered
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/20/advanced

Friday
Like Wednesday, started losing time after Finsbury Park, not before
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G16319/2018/12/21/advanced

Is reality actually a bit rosier than the gloom you repeatedly post on here? In all cases above, right time running was recovered by Hitchin or Letchworth.

Had a return from Cambridge to Blackfriars (direct) and back on Thursday, returning about the same time as 1R65. Right time throughout, both ways.

If we take a comparable service in the Winter 98 timetable, 2151 KX to Kings Lynn. This was timed to depart Hitchin at 2220 (29 minutes) and Letchworth at 2224 (33 minutes). This compares poorly to today’s 2154 service, which takes 30 minutes to Hitchin and 36 minutes to Letchworth - in both cases with one less stop today. That’s not exactly rosy for two decades of so-called progress.