175's on Llandudno shuttle

[gazthomas]

All

I've raised a similar question a year or two ago but as I sit in air-conditioned splendor in my 3 car 100 mph 175 going from Llandudno Junction to Llandudno I remain puzzled why Arriva Trains Wales continues to diagram such units on shuttle. I appreciate that some turns are mainline fill-ins but would a Parry People Mover be viable? Maybe a little tight at times...

 

[northwichcat]

North Wales are very lucky when it comes to rolling stock. There's numerous services which could be Pacer operated (and were when North Wales was part of the RRNW area) but since North Wales moved in to the Wales & Border franchise the worst rolling stock you can get is a refurbished 150/2 with 2+2 seating and tables.

 

[merlodlliw]

North Wales are very lucky when it comes to rolling stock. There's numerous services which could be Pacer operated (and were when North Wales was part of the RRNW area) but since North Wales moved in to the Wales & Border franchise the worst rolling stock you can get is a refurbished 150/2 with 2+2 seating and tables.

I find the single car 153 is in my opinion the worst, however when Central trains ran from Chester we did have brand new Bombardier stock.
However the Pacer takes the biscuit, no longer missed in North Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All

I've raised a similar question a year or two ago but as I sit in air-conditioned splendor in my 3 car 100 mph 175 going from Llandudno Junction to Llandudno I remain puzzled why Arriva Trains Wales continues to diagram such units on shuttle. I appreciate that some turns are mainline fill-ins but would a Parry People Mover be viable? Maybe a little tight at times...

I notice the Loco Hauled joins the shuttle in December.

 

[FQ]

The worst rolling stock you can get is a refurbished 150/2 with 2+2 seating and tables.

Arn't the 153s still working on that route? Even if they are, I would say that the worst stock up there is the Virgin 221s.

 

[PHILIPE]

There is history to this. The Manchester to Llandudno trains used to turn back to Manchester after a matter of minutes. What was happening was that if the train from Manchester was running late it would be turned back at Llandudno Jn and passengers for Llandudno left stranded for an hour unless it just happened to be there was a Blaenau Ffestiniog due. If the next one was late they would still be there. To overcome this performance problem (an additional diagram was required), the Timetable was amended to the current pattern to dispense with this problem.

 

[northwichcat]

Arn't the 153s still working on that route? Even if they are, I would say that the worst stock up there is the Virgin 221s.

Tell you what if the 221s are that bad.

Terminate all ex-Euston services at Chester. Remove carriages C and D from 7 of the 221s and convert carriage E to be standard class only and remove the kitchen. (Carriages C and D can be used to lengthen other Virgin/XC Voyagers.) Give the 3 carriage 221s to the Mid-Cheshire line, cascade any Sprinters released to the Southport line so you finish up releasing 7 Pacers* (ideally the Merseytravel units) to run Chester-North Wales service instead of the awful Voyagers you get currently.

* The Mid-Cheshire line uses 5 diagrams plus 2 units are required for peak time extras.

 

[gazthomas]

I was in an ATW refurbed 153 in Cardiff on Wednesday and I was amazed what a transformation it was. The point about Manchester reliability makes sense

 

[nw1]

Tell you what if the 221s are that bad.


* The Mid-Cheshire line uses 5 diagrams plus 2 units are required for peak time extras.

Just looked at the Mid Cheshire and it would naively suggest 4, e.g.
0917 Piccadilly-Chester arr. 1045
1059 Chester-Piccadilly arr. 1230
(presumably) 1317 Piccadilly-Chester etc

I presume that the actual diagram is more complicated than that and actually the 1230 arrival in Manchester goes off somewhere else closer to Manchester (and back) to return for the 1417 - as a 45 minute layover seems rather long.

Before the diversion via Stockport ISTR it was worked with just 3 diagrams... but there were many more peak extras, as frequently as every 15-20 mins as far as Knutsford IIRC.

 

[northwichcat]

Just looked at the Mid Cheshire and it would naively suggest 4, e.g.
0917 Piccadilly-Chester arr. 1045
1059 Chester-Piccadilly arr. 1230
(presumably) 1317 Piccadilly-Chester etc

I presume that the actual diagram is more complicated than that and actually the 1230 arrival in Manchester goes off somewhere else closer to Manchester (and back) to return for the 1417 - as a 45 minute layover seems rather long.

It's more complicated than that but not for the reason you suggest as for most of the day there is a 47 minute layover at platform 11 at Piccadilly. Although on checking you are correct about 4 diagrams being able to cover the standard pattern workings - the 156 which works the 08:17 Piccadilly-Chester works the 12:17 Piccadilly-Chester.

The diagram involving the 09:17 Piccadilly-Chester is a complicated one. It's formed of the unit off the 06:02 Chester-Piccadilly service joined to the unit off the 06:59 Chester-Piccadilly service. On arrival at Chester the units are separated and one unit works the 10:59 Chester-Piccadilly service alone, with the other unit being left at Chester. When the 12:17 Piccadilly-Chester arrives at Chester, the crews switch to the unit stabled at Chester leaving the 156 at Chester. Then a Lime Street crew arrive with a 150 and take the 156 (which works a diagram including a Merseytravel sponsored booked class 156 service in the evening peak.) When the 13:17 Piccadilly-Chester arrives at Chester the unit is joined on to the 150 left at Chester to form a 4 car 150. That then works the service which takes a considerable number of Knutsford Academy pupils home and on arrival at Piccadilly the 4 car 150 formation switches to the Buxton line, with a 142 arriving ECS from Newton Heath forming the 17:09 Piccadilly-Chester.

When Piccadilly station was being refurbished ahead of the Commonwealth Games the number of units stabled at Piccadilly had to be kept to a minimum, FNW tried operating off-peak Mid-Cheshire services with 3 diagrams - they reduced the frequency at Mouldsworth, Delamere, Lostock Gralam, Mobberley and Ashley to 2 hourly and even then the train only stopped at those stations on request. They got a PPM figure of 45% for that period, so the idea didn't work!

Before the diversion via Stockport ISTR it was worked with just 3 diagrams... but there were many more peak extras, as frequently as every 15-20 mins as far as Knutsford IIRC.

At one point there was a total of 11 Manchester departures from Sale between 07:30 and 08:30 which is higher than the current Metrolink frequency.

There did used to be services starting/terminating at Knutsford but that was a long time ago now and the turnback facility and signal box at Knutsford are both long gone.

 

[175001]

I'm sorry but what's the mid Cheshire line got to do with Llandudno?!

Back to original topic...the Llandudno shuttle is served by a unit that arrives from Picc, does the shuttle to the junction and then goes back to Picc.

E.g MAN-LLD-LLJ-LLD-MAN.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sorry but what's the mid Cheshire line got to do with Llandudno?!

I sarcastically suggested if North Wales feels it's suffering by having the Voyagers which according to fishquinn are worse than the 153s, then we could take shortened Voyagers for the Mid-Cheshire line and have Pacers operating Chester-North Wales services. I wasn't expecting to get a reply suggesting I hadn't counted the number of trains required correctly!

Pre-franchise re-organisation Mid-Cheshire services were related to Llandudno. There was a daily class 175 service which was Chester to Llandudno via Altrincham and Warrington, while when engineering works closed the Chester-Warrington-Manchester line, Mid-Cheshire services run through to North Wales in lieu.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

North Wales are very lucky when it comes to rolling stock. There's numerous services which could be Pacer operated (and were when North Wales was part of the RRNW area) but since North Wales moved in to the Wales & Border franchise the worst rolling stock you can get is a refurbished 150/2 with 2+2 seating and tables.

You could say the same about Oxenholme-Windermere and its 3-car 185s with 1st class.
In fact the North Wales services have steadily degraded over the ATW franchise, with 158s increasingly substituted for 175s (ie often losing 1 car), 150s for 158s, and 153s on a bad day on the Chester-Crewe shuttle.

 

[Andy2805]

Fishquinn - no 153s up in N Wales IIRC, not on a common basis anyway, it's a 150 that operates the Conwy valley branch. Not an expert but the frequency of services to Llandudno is fairly poor/irregular given it's a popular resort. In fact, Sundays have a better service than the rest of the week from my experience!

Agree with Jcollins, n wales are lucky stock wise. I lived there for a few years, now I'm on wirral and have the joy of the merseyrail 507/508s or any of northerns fine units!

 

[northwichcat]

You could say the same about Oxenholme-Windermere and its 3-car 185s with 1st class.

Yes but that's just one line in a county where most local services are operated by Pacers. Based on the Northern/TPE consultation it's likely both Barrow and Windermere will get shuttle services operated by whatever stock the Northern franchise has available from 2016. If Cumbria was as lucky as North Wales it would have seen all local/regional services transfer to the TPE franchise and all services operated using either refurbished Sprinters or Desiros.

 

[6Gman]

I'm sorry but what's the mid Cheshire line got to do with Llandudno?!

I have learnt by now that any thread can be turned into a discussion of the Mid Cheshire Line ...

 

[gazthomas]

I have learnt by now that any thread can be turned into a discussion of the Mid Cheshire Line ...

Funny!

 

[northwichcat]

I find the single car 153 is in my opinion the worst, however when Central trains ran from Chester we did have brand new Bombardier stock.
However the Pacer takes the biscuit, no longer missed in North Wales.

Technically most of the 170s were built by Adtranz before the Bombardier takeover. Also a number of them were older than the 175s so getting some 175s off the North West routes appearing on North Wales-South Wales services should more than make up for that.

I have learnt by now that any thread can be turned into a discussion of the Mid Cheshire Line ...

Not quite but pretty much any thread can turn in to a Pacer replacement discussion or a discussion to whether England will get any Scotrail trains if Scotland votes for independence.

 

[Iskra]

Yes but that's just one line in a county where most local services are operated by Pacers. Based on the Northern/TPE consultation it's likely both Barrow and Windermere will get shuttle services operated by whatever stock the Northern franchise has available from 2016. If Cumbria was as lucky as North Wales it would have seen all local/regional services transfer to the TPE franchise and all services operated using either refurbished Sprinters or Desiros.

I think you're overstating the pacer presence in Cumbria.

Lancaster-Barrow is primarily TPE 185's, Oxenholme-Windermere is primarily TPE 185's, Oxenholme-Carlisle is well served by TPE and the Settle-Carlisle is mainly 158's.

That leaves only the Cumbrian Coast line with the odd pacer and even that is a fairly recent phenomena.

Cumbria does fairly well I think.

I used to live at Carnforth and the only pacers I ever saw/caught were Leeds-Morecambe. Barrow-Lancaster/Preston was virtually always 15x.

 

[Jez]

it would be better if a spare 150 could be sourced to run the llandudno shuttles maybe a 175 could be freed up for extra capacity in south wales then. i.e. a 150 in South Wales could effectively swap with a 175.

 

[Manchester77]

I think a 150 is set to be freed from December when the current double sprinter from manchester - Llandudno jct/Holyhead becomes LHCS operated. Whenever I've got it it's always been a 158-150 combo so with Decembers conversion a 150 could be freed.

Alternatively could a 175 be used on a Heart of Wales line service freeing a sprinter or do 150s/153s not work the line much anymore?

 

[Jez]

how is worked by 1 x 150 and 2 x single 153 so yes a 175 could replace the 150. The 150 does overnight fishguard the night before so a 175 would have to do that if it was swapped.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe all the ATW 150s are based in Cardiff. Surely there is a limit on how many they can work up north and back to cover local duties there?

 

[PHILIPE]

it would be better if a spare 150 could be sourced to run the llandudno shuttles maybe a 175 could be freed up for extra capacity in south wales then. i.e. a 150 in South Wales could effectively swap with a 175.

I have already explained the issues regarding the Llandudno Shuttle. They are, in effect, extras to fill in the time before retuning to Manchester.

 

[tom1649]

it would be better if a spare 150 could be sourced to run the llandudno shuttles maybe a 175 could be freed up for extra capacity in south wales then. i.e. a 150 in South Wales could effectively swap with a 175.

As has already been mentioned, the shuttles are interworked with the Manchester services. They aren't using a 175 for the sake of it.

One option would be to remove all the through services to Llandudno and run a half hourly shuttle using a 150. I have the impression that ATW see the Llandudno branch as an operational inconvenience anyway and that they'd rather run everything to Bangor instead.

 

[Welshman]

it would be better if a spare 150 could be sourced to run the llandudno shuttles maybe a 175 could be freed up for extra capacity in south wales then. i.e. a 150 in South Wales could effectively swap with a 175.

As has been said before, the Llandudno shuttles are simply filling-in time before returning to Manchester, and also, incidentally, providing connections to/from the Holyhead-Birmingham/Cardiff services at the Junction. All neatly-planned really, and a credit to Arriva Trains Wales.

So if the shuttle part were to be replaced with a 150, it would mean the Manchesters have a lay-over at the junction of 1 hour, which is not very efficient use of stock, especially as they also have a long layover at the other end in Mayfield loop in Manchester. Also, through passengers to/from Llandudno would have a hitherto unecessary change at the Junction.

If the "shuttle" were to run through to Manchester as a 150, it would result in gross-overcrowding, especially on the Chester-Manchester section.

I appreciate running an almost-empty 2 or 3 car 175 from Llandudno to the Junction and back seems wasteful, especially in view of overcrowding on other lines, but it is difficult to see what could be done without recasting the whole Llandudno-Manchester timetable, which would mean negotiating new paths through the already busy Ordsall Lane-Piccadilly section, and a knock-on effect on TPE and Northern services.


EDIT - apologies to PHILIPE and tom1649, who I now see have made the same point while I was composing this detailed response.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has already been mentioned, the shuttles are interworked with the Manchester services. They aren't using a 175 for the sake of it.

One option would be to remove all the through services to Llandudno and run a half hourly shuttle using a 150. I have the impression that ATW see the Llandudno branch as an operational inconvenience anyway and that they'd rather run everything to Bangor instead.

I get that impression too sometimes. For example, next Sunday the 7th September, is the last day this year for Sunday services on the branch - hardly the middle of winter yet!

 

[Manchester77]

As has already been mentioned, the shuttles are interworked with the Manchester services. They aren't using a 175 for the sake of it.

One option would be to remove all the through services to Llandudno and run a half hourly shuttle using a 150. I have the impression that ATW see the Llandudno branch as an operational inconvenience anyway and that they'd rather run everything to Bangor instead.

Does seem to be that way especially by the sounds of the new December timetable with the LHCS working which will see longer gaps in the services from Llandudno.

I wonder if ATW were given the choice whether they'd run the Llandudno branch just as a shuttle connecting with services to manchester and Holyhead and only run through services during the peaks, I'd imagine that'd be easier for them to do.

 

[northwichcat]

Lancaster-Barrow is primarily TPE 185's

Only half of Barrow-Lancaster services are 185s, the other half are Northern services.

Oxenholme-Carlisle is well served by TPE and the Settle-Carlisle is mainly 158's.

Note I did say "where most local services are operated by Pacers." Just because regional and Intercity services which serve Cumbria can be used for local journeys doesn't make them local services.

 

[Iskra]

Only half of Barrow-Lancaster services are 185s, the other half are Northern services.



Note I did say "where most local services are operated by Pacers." Just because regional and Intercity services which serve Cumbria can be used for local journeys doesn't make them local services.

Yes, and only a small proportion of those none 185 Barrow/Cumbrian Coast local services are 142's and that is only a very recent phenomena.

So...

"Yes but that's just one line in a county where most local services are operated by Pacers."

...is a complete fabrication.

The vast majority of local services are still 15x's on Preston/Lancaster-Barrow, the Cumbrian Coast, the Windermere line and the S&C.

So, as I said; Cumbria still comes off very nicely indeed compared to the rest of the North.

 

[Manchester77]

Every time I've seen a northern Barrow/Lancaster service its always been a 156. I thought most services in Cumbria were 150s and 156s with a few 153s?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think a 150 is set to be freed from December when the current double sprinter from manchester - Llandudno jct/Holyhead becomes LHCS operated. Whenever I've got it it's always been a 158-150 combo so with Decembers conversion a 150 could be freed.

Alternatively could a 175 be used on a Heart of Wales line service freeing a sprinter or do 150s/153s not work the line much anymore?

The unit out the bottom of the cascade - a158-caused by the LHCS will form a 0640 Crewe to BHM INTL that joins up with the 0514 from Aberystwyth at Shrewsbury making the key commuter departure into the West Midlands at 0733 a 6 car formation.