172 middle cars for Scotrail?

[tbtc]

There's certain types of unit that would benefit from extra coaches (e.g. Voyagers), but since the production line has ended, it'd be prohibitively expensive to build more.

However, the current orders of three coach 172s (London Midland etc) means that Turbostar centre coaches are being built.

Now, excuse my ignorance here, but would it be possible to build 170 centre coaches whilst they are at it?

The reason I'm wondering is that, since ScotRail use a number of 158s coupled to 170s, or "double" 170s on a regular basis, they *could* get extra centre coaches to make a five/ six coach "super 170". This would mean some of the existing 158s could be cascaded south, plus maybe some of the 170s also cascaded as two car units (with the old centre coaches being part of the 5/6 car "super 170s").

As building centre coaches sounds cheaper than building an equivalent number of "end" coaches, this may be a cheaper solution to getting capacity enhanced on a few franchises.

For example:

1. built a dozen Turbostar centre coaches
2. stick these into six ScotRail 170s (to make a five car unit)
3. run these "super 170s" on routes like the Aberdeen ones that are currently five coaches (but currently run by attaching a 158 to a 170)
4. This gives enough spare 158s to send half a dozen down to Northern/ EMT/ FGW etc

OR

1. built a dozen Turbostar centre coaches
2. stick these into four ScotRail 170s (to make a six car unit)
3. run these "super 170s" on routes like the "shuttle" that are currently six coaches (but currently run by attaching two 170s)
4. This gives four two car 170s to send down to TPE/ London Midland etc

(obviously the above could be done on a greater scale, I'm just using the example of a dozen new centre coaches to illustrate the potential. And, yes, the "shuttle" units won't be needed after the line is electrified, I know...)

The only thing I'm unsure about is whether they could build centre coaches capable of 170 speeds, or whether they'd need to be restricted to 172 speed...

 

[djw1981]

No... because that affects your maintenance schedule. FSR do a lot of daytime maintenance where one unit is still working, whilst another strengthens during peak only. And the choice would be 3car or 6car (due to station size).

The 3+2 combo is not ideal, but 3+3 is not exactly a [problem. In hindsight, corridor connections may have been better though.

 

[me123]

^ What he said. We need the maintenance on the other parts of these trains. It would be ideal for Aberdeen-Edinburgh, which can see high passenger loadings throughout the day, but the Dundee "local" service has eased overcrowding for the time being and, when when E-G is electrified, we can run 6 carriages up that way assuming the demand is there. Of course, we would need to run trains as 3+3, but in Scotland we tend to live with that quite well.

Nice idea, though. It gets those 158s down where they're needed. But I doubt it will be implemented; as I say 3+3 seems to work well up here.

 

[tbtc]

Cheers for the replies.

It's the (lack of) corridor connection that bugs me - we're going to have a lot of units doubled up in the UK with no connections (whether that's a ScotRail 158 + 170, or a Northern 142 + 142, or a Trans Pennine 185 + 185, or two Voyagers/ Meridians...).

I appreciate that a fixed formation longer train would cause more problems (in terms of flexibility) than it might solve, but wanted to offer something different.

 

[route:oxford]

Cheers for the replies.

It's the (lack of) corridor connection that bugs me - we're going to have a lot of units doubled up in the UK with no connections (whether that's a ScotRail 158 + 170, or a Northern 142 + 142, or a Trans Pennine 185 + 185, or two Voyagers/ Meridians...).

I appreciate that a fixed formation longer train would cause more problems (in terms of flexibility) than it might solve, but wanted to offer something different.

Perhaps a hybrid solution is needed?

A 6 car set made up of DMF-MS-DMCS-DMCS-MS-DMS (Apologies if the codes aren't correct)

Where necessary (partial failure at depot?), preferable (daytime maintenance), or economical a 3 car service may operate - the rest of the time the stock would operate in a 6 car formation.

Yes there will be times when set will run "the wrong way"

DMCS-MS-DMS-DMF-MS-DMCS

or

DMCS-MS-DMS-DMCS-MS-DMF

But that just makes things interesting for the rail enthusiast or photographer.

 

[Kneedown]

How about we just send all the 158's up to Scotland and we'll have the new build's instead?

 

[me123]

How about we just send all the 158's up to Scotland and we'll have the new build's instead?

What new builds? The 380s? You won't want them, mostly because you don't have any OHLE in Wales (as far as I know, anyway). Seeing as how we're getting lots of wires up as well, we won't/shouldn't be getting new Diesels anyway, and there'll probably be a rolling stock cascade in 8 years that'll free up 156s and perhaps some 158s.

 

[Pumbaa]

What new builds? The 380s? You won't want them, mostly because you don't have any OHLE in Wales (as far as I know, anyway). Seeing as how we're getting lots of wires up as well, we won't/shouldn't be getting new Diesels anyway, and there'll probably be a rolling stock cascade in 8 years that'll free up 156s and perhaps some 158s.

Last time I checked, Kneedown lived in the East Midlands and works for EMT

 

[me123]

Guessing by the signature Sorry if I offended you in any way!

My point still stands, though. I'm struggling to think of any electrified lines that need new rolling stock like the 380s; the class 315 operation may be the only one that could be replaced by 380s.

 

[djw1981]

I think they were referring to the OP's proposed 172 new build for FSR which could go to midlands etc.

Another issue would be that IIRc the 172's are rated for 75mph, and have different engines to the 170 fleets.

 

[route:oxford]

I think they were referring to the OP's proposed 172 new build for FSR which could go to midlands etc.

Another issue would be that IIRc the 172's are rated for 75mph, and have different engines to the 170 fleets.

From Wiki...

172/0 - 75 mph (120 km/h)
172/1 - 75 mph (120 km/h)
172/2 - 100 mph (160 km/h)
172/3 - 100 mph (160 km/h)

 

[tbtc]

Another issue would be that IIRc the 172's are rated for 75mph, and have different engines to the 170 fleets.

Aye, that's what I was wondering - could the production line of 172s produce some 170 middle cars at the same time?

(obviously building brand new 170s coaches would be prohibitively expensive on their own, but if they could be tagged into an order for the similar 172s...)

 

[Kneedown]

Guessing by the signature Sorry if I offended you in any way!

My point still stands, though. I'm struggling to think of any electrified lines that need new rolling stock like the 380s; the class 315 operation may be the only one that could be replaced by 380s.

No offence taken taken Sir, resident in East Mid's and have been for many years now, but Cymraeg through and through!

I take your point that (at the moment, pending further announcements from Mr Hoon) we havn't got any wires down here, but the point i was making was why should we always have to make do with all the clapped out rubbish that no one else wants? Perhaps i should have said build the middle cars for the 170's and send them down here, sending the 158's up north.
The general concensus seems to be "If it's old and needs replacing, send it to EMT".