16 car formations

[317663]

I remember seeing at Ilford a month back a 16 car 321 that was coupled,
Has anyone seen 16 car formations on a public (normal service)?
If in different terms, anyone seen a 12 car 220/221/222 or 15 car 444?

Tell us where you saw it (station or name of place) and if you can, post a picture of video.

 

[TomJ93]

15 car 221 blockade busters were good

 

[CallySleeper]

4 x16-car formation trains can be seen at London Euston and down the WCML every night (except Saturday). Read: Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

15 car 221 blockade busters were good

There's a clip on youtube of a 15 car Voyager. I doubt that 15 or 15 car formations would be used in service as they must be a pita for door opening and also for signaling

 

[Manchester77]

Has anyone seen 16 car formations on a public (normal service)?
If in different terms, anyone seen a 12 car 220/221/222 or 15 car 450?

15 car 450s wouldn't be possible, all multiples of 450s have to be multiples of 4 since all 450s are 4 cars in length. I'd imagine you'd see a 15 car 444 on an ECS move on SWT sometimes.

 

[317663]

15 car 450s wouldn't be possible, all multiples of 450s have to be multiples of 4 since all 450s are 4 cars in length. I'd imagine you'd see a 15 car 444 on an ECS move on SWT sometimes.

I meant a 444 lol silly me. Yeah I know 450s are 4cars. Edited.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are you only interested in 16 car formations?

If so this 23 car EMU rescue formation will be no good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jta4c9FMmCA

 

[317663]

Are you only interested in 16 car formations?

If so this 23 car EMU rescue formation will be no good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jta4c9FMmCA

Any "long formation" would be fine, just basically services which used greater than 12 cars.

 

[Class172]

Are you only interested in 16 car formations?

If so this 23 car EMU rescue formation will be no good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jta4c9FMmCA

There are probably a few occasions where that formation would allow one to walk between two stations without leaving the railway.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'd imagine you'd see a 15 car 444 on an ECS move on SWT sometimes.

Only if at least one of them's dead. Maximum of 2x444 or 3x450 as they can't cope with any additional control units.

 

[Qwerty133]

There's a clip on youtube of a 15 car Voyager. I doubt that 15 or 15 car formations would be used in service as they must be a pita for door opening and also for signaling

They have been used in service, when the WCML has been undergoing engineering works AAUI, however it hasn't happened for a least a couple of years (this forum is the only place I know about said workings from).

 

[jopsuk]

Are you sure? After all, 3x450 has 50% more control units, motors than 2x444. So 3x444 would surely be possible?

Generally platform length stymies most long formations. few platforms longer than 250m. 250m accommodates 10x23m (eg 444, most DMUs) or 12x20m (most EMUs), also East Coast HSTs (2+9) and East Coast/GEML loco+9+DVT. WCML has longer platforms to accomodate 11 car 390s (265m).

Caledonian Sleeper has limited platforms that can handle it- has a loco, 12 23m long mark 3 carriages and 4 20m long mark 2 carriages. At Euston, it also needs space for a second loco.

Similarly, the 15 carriage (3x5) "Blockade buster" Voyagers had limited places they could call.

As for the Southeastern formation, wasn't half the train dead? Bet there's some were disappointed that one of the units was a 3-car!

 

[Pumbaa]

Are you sure? After all, 3x450 has 50% more control units, motors than 2x444. So 3x444 would surely be possible?

444s have an additional auxiliary converter unit (ACU). Max six TCU and ACU per train, so 2.444 or 3.450, or 1.444+1.450

 

[badassunicorn]

I've seen a 20 car before as a failure; 4 car fails, 8 car rescues and then fails, another 8 car rescues the lot.

 

[user15681]

I've seen a 20 car before as a failure; 4 car fails, 8 car rescues and then fails, another 8 car rescues the lot.

Out of curiosity, where was that one?

There was a 16 car one around Clapham not too long ago, although again it was a case of failed units. A 4 car got gapped, so a second 4 car train was sent to rescue. Unfortunately, the rescue train got gapped too, so a third train (this time 8 cars) was sent and it was successfully moved.

 

[317663]

Out of curiosity, where was that one?

There was a 16 car one around Clapham not too long ago, although again it was a case of failed units. A 4 car got gapped, so a second 4 car train was sent to rescue. Unfortunately, the rescue train got gapped too, so a third train (this time 8 cars) was sent and it was successfully moved.

I'm guessing the 12 car 455 I saw earlier might have been from a failure, as when going NB, it slowed quite quickly, and on the way back, traction motor was loud but accelerated slow.

 

[badassunicorn]

Out of curiosity, where was that one?

There was a 16 car one around Clapham not too long ago, although again it was a case of failed units. A 4 car got gapped, so a second 4 car train was sent to rescue. Unfortunately, the rescue train got gapped too, so a third train (this time 8 cars) was sent and it was successfully moved.

If I remember rightly, it was the Romford Upminsters that failed originally

 

[hassaanhc]

I'm guessing the 12 car 455 I saw earlier might have been from a failure, as when going NB, it slowed quite quickly, and on the way back, traction motor was loud but accelerated slow.

They're usually pretty loud anyway and they only have one motor coach per 4 car unit, while power supply limitations might come into play too
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I remember rightly, it was the Romford Upminsters that failed originally

Yeah that happened, but the Clapham Junction one did too a few days after. Wonder what class that was, I would be more surprised if it was a Desiro rather than 455 as the 444/450 have pickups on both ends of the driving coach while the 455 only have it on the outer ends (only realised that the other day as well)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Found a pic of a 12 car desiro (3xclass 450) http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephenpoole/13065908944/

Can't find any pictures of a 15 car desiro (3x class 444) or a 16 car desiro (4x class 450). Would the power supply be able to handle that anyway?

 

[FQ]

There are probably a few occasions where that formation would allow one to walk between two stations without leaving the railway.

Agreed but the only problem is that you would have to walk through pretty much all of the units cabs... The next station is High Brooms and Frant. Get in the first 2 coaches for Frant and the last 6 coaches for High Brooms.

 

[badassunicorn]

we have 12 car 360's on GE side every day =D

 

[jopsuk]

12 car formations (12x20m carriages) are very common. 450s out (and into, obviously) of Waterloo. 377s out of Victoria/London Bridge/on Thameslink. 375s out of various SE terminals (do they also do 12 car 465 formations?). 395s out of St Pancras (2x6 car units). 357s out of Fenchurch Street. 321, 360 and 379s out of Liverpool Street (and in the past 317s too to Norwich- they could go 12 car 317 to Cambridge as well but don't at the moment, the 12 car services are all 379s on that line). 365s and I think 321s out of Kings Cross. 350s out of Euston.

basically, all the commuter main line electric operators around London other than Overground, Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect run 12 car services. So 12 cars is not unusual in anyway.

16 would be, because the infrastructure mainly cannot support it.

 

[TEW]

And 16-carriages would be horrendously expensive because none of the London Terminals can support trains of that length. Extending platforms away from the terminals to allow for longer trains is much easier, but even then the longer the platforms you get the more problems you get with bridges, signals etc.

 

[higthomas]

Does anyone know what the longest formation that has ever been used in regular service in the UK is?

 

[jopsuk]

Domestic or International? I think the Caledonian Sleeper, especially when the empties are being brought in or out of Euston so there's a loco on each end, may well be the actual winner?

But yes, the biggest "infrastructure" block to longer trains are the terminals

 

[Hophead]

Trains of 394m length operate to & from St. Pancras several times an hour.

 

[Fincra5]

The system on 377s won't allow more than 12.. so you have to trick the computer into thinking they aren't there.

 

[W230]

The system on 377s won't allow more than 12.. so you have to trick the computer into thinking they aren't there.

Flick the Mitrac MCB to off in intermediate cars you mean...

 

[Fincra5]

Flick the Mitrac MCB to off in intermediate cars you mean...

Maybe I've seen it where fleet had to aux off the other units and run a cable to the batteries, from the live units...

 

[Juniper Driver]

Found a pic of a 12 car desiro (3xclass 450) http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephenpoole/13065908944/

Can't find any pictures of a 15 car desiro (3x class 444) or a 16 car desiro (4x class 450). Would the power supply be able to handle that anyway?

Would guess it would be under fault conditions with ACU's and TCU's needing to be isolated.Twelve car is quite common during the rush I notice.