16:30 Waterloo to Guildford service arriving later during engineering works

[infobleep]

This is a very minor point but it interested me.

The 16:30 London Waterloo to Portsmouth service is usually booked to arrive into Guildford on platform 4 at 17:02 and depart at 17:04.

However, I have noticed that during this week's engineering works on the Portsmouth Direct, south of Guildford, it is due to arrive at 17:06 and terminate on platform 5.

I assume this is due to needing to allow the 17:01 to depart from platform 5 to Waterloo. Could it not arrive into platform 4 and depart from that so that it didn't need to wait for the train to depart or would that be too confusing for passengers?

I only ask because this has led to the 17:11 Guildford to Redhill service having to use platform 8 inside of 4, as it's due to arrive at 17:07 and depart 17:11. Most stopping trains to Redhill use platform 8 but usually a few use platform 4, including this one. If the 17:11 can happily use platform 8, it might as well use it all the time to be consistent, if that is what is desired here.

As it is, today the 17:01 to London Waterloo used platform 3 today.

 

[OliverH68]

Signal sighting on London end on P4 is very tight with a 10 444/12 450, as such reversals of those stock types are barred on P4 due to the starting signal being out of the driver's view. As such, it is better & safer to use P5 rather than 4.

This is also documented in the Wessex TPRs (train planning rules).

 

[TEW]

The 1630 Waterloo to Guildford is booked 10-444 this week, so as per the above post is not permitted to reverse in platform 4. It can only use platform 6, 5 or 3, all of which would conflict with the 1701 departure.

 

[nw1]

The 1630 Waterloo to Guildford is booked 10-444 this week, so as per the above post is not permitted to reverse in platform 4. It can only use platform 6, 5 or 3, all of which would conflict with the 1701 departure.

5 mins seems a long gap after the 1701 though. Could it not come in 3 mins later, i.e. 1704? I always thought 3 mins was the standard re-occupation time for a platform when the second train was coming in from the same direction the first leaves from. Certainly was that way in the 80s at Guildford (e.g. Platform 1 Cobham line departures, train departs xx21, next train arrives xx24, departs xx52, next train arrives xx55, out at xx21, etc); but then again everything seems less efficient these days (e.g. 7 minutes needed for a complete attach/detach process versus 4 mins in the 80s...)

There was even one case of a 3 min gap involving a 'crossing' move: 1621 Waterloo via Cobham out from P1, and 1624 arrival from Waterloo via Cobham on P2 - heading for Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[TEW]

5 mins seems a long gap after the 1701 though. Could it not come in 3 mins later, i.e. 1704? I always thought 3 mins was the standard re-occupation time for a platform when the second train was coming in from the same direction the first leaves. Certainly was always that way in the slam-door era but then again everything seems less efficient these days (e.g. 7 minutes needed for a complete attach/detach process versus 4 mins in the 80s...)

3 minutes looks about right if the 1701 uses platform 5 if booked. Today the 1630 arrived at 1705 but the 1701 used platform 3 so would have taken longer to clear the points. I don't know much about the train planning rules though.

SWR do plan 4 minutes for attach/ detach which seems to work in practice, but probably couldn't be any less. That's 4 minutes from the rear portion arriving though for an attachment and 4 minutes for the front portion to depart after a detachment which may not have been what you were referring to.

 

[nw1]

3 minutes looks about right if the 1701 uses platform 5 if booked. Today the 1630 arrived at 1705 but the 1701 used platform 3 so would have taken longer to clear the points. I don't know much about the train planning rules though.

Ah ok.

SWR do plan 4 minutes for attach/ detach which seems to work in practice, but probably couldn't be any less. That's 4 minutes from the rear portion arriving though for an attachment and 4 minutes for the front portion to depart after a detachment which may not have been what you were referring to.

Back in the day the *rear* portion could be away 4 mins after the combined train arrived. For example the Basingstoke/Alton dividers arrived at Woking xx11/xx41, the Basingstoke portion was out at xx13/xx43 in every hour and the Alton portion was out at xx15/xx45 in some hours. (In some hours the Alton portion was xx17 and xx47, bit this was only because they had to wait for the xx14/xx44 down the Direct to depart). And these were VEPs where you had to worry about open doors!

 

[louis97]

5 mins seems a long gap after the 1701 though. Could it not come in 3 mins later, i.e. 1704? I always thought 3 mins was the standard re-occupation time for a platform when the second train was coming in from the same direction the first leaves from. Certainly was that way in the 80s at Guildford (e.g. Platform 1 Cobham line departures, train departs xx21, next train arrives xx24, departs xx52, next train arrives xx55, out at xx21, etc).

The planning rules dictate that 4.5 minutes is planned between a departure towards Woking Junction followed by an arrival into P3/5/6/8 also from Woking Junction. The other 30 seconds will likely be a round up to arrive on the whole minute.

 

[nw1]

The planning rules dictate that 4.5 minutes is planned between a departure towards Woking Junction followed by an arrival into P3/5/6/8 also from Woking Junction. The other 30 seconds will likely be a round up to arrive on the whole minute.

OK, so that does look considerably longer than in the "old days" though conceivable P1 has different rules?

 

[louis97]

OK, so that does look considerably longer than in the "old days" though conceivable P1 has different rules?

There are no specific rules for platform 1, however there is a general junction margin of 3 minutes at Guildford for all moves where no other rule exists.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The crossings outside p1/p2 to the UP Cobham are just outside the platforms I believe, hence 3 mins is workable, where as coming DOWN from Woking to access p5, the crossing over to the UP line is quite a way North of the platforms.

PS: a very rough calculation using google gives the Down Cobham home signal position protecting p1-3 as about 310 yards from the platform ends, where as the equivalent home signal on the Down Main is about 600 yards out.

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for the informative replies. I've learned something new.

Initially, I thought they had allowed more time because the train was terminating but then I remembered it was booked into platform 5 and realised it couldn't get there any sooner due to the 17:01, which is also booked for platform 5

Without the engineering work, what would be the issue with the 17:11 to Redhull using platform 8, given it usually has platform 4?

Whose job is it to change the platform in the journey planner systems for the 17:11? Does Network Rail do this or does it fall to GWR, who are running their usual timetable and not otherwise impacted by the engineering works?

 

[OliverH68]

Without the engineering work, what would be the issue with the 17:11 to Redhull using platform 8, given it usually has platform 4?

Whose job is it to change the platform in the journey planner systems for the 17:11? Does Network Rail do this or does it fall to GWR, who are running their usual timetable and not otherwise impacted by the engineering works?

There is no issue with the 17:11 using P8 if needs be, but I think 4 is preferred purely to keep things moving. In Dec'23, the 1711 departs at 1707 from P5.

In response to the latter question - it can be done by either the TOC or NR planning in case they deem it needing to be moved to avoid clashes.

 

[nw1]

The crossings outside p1/p2 to the UP Cobham are just outside the platforms I believe, hence 3 mins is workable, where as coming DOWN from Woking to access p5, the crossing over to the UP line is quite a way North of the platforms.

PS: a very rough calculation using google gives the Down Cobham home signal position protecting p1-3 as about 310 yards from the platform ends, where as the equivalent home signal on the Down Main is about 600 yards out.

Ah ok thanks, that would explain it.

I used Guildford very much in the 80s, I do seem to recall the junctions were just beyond the end of the platforms for P1/2.

I never saw anything come into P5 from the north though, so never got the opportunity to see what happened. (Obviously it probably wouldn't happen outside of times of disruption).

 

[Deepgreen]

The 1630 Waterloo to Guildford is booked 10-444 this week, so as per the above post is not permitted to reverse in platform 4. It can only use platform 6, 5 or 3, all of which would conflict with the 1701 departure.

I am trying to visualise what makes it hard to see the starter on p4 NB - is it partly hidden by the 444/450s' cab-end connection? Also, what happens if a 10-car Desiro formation has to terminate in p4 owing to, say, an incident? Does it have to go forward first to reverse (not possible if the issue is in the tunnels) or are there special arrangements for emergencies?

 

[TEW]

I am trying to visualise what makes it hard to see the starter on p4 NB - is it partly hidden by the 444/450s' cab-end connection? Also, what happens if a 10-car Desiro formation has to terminate in p4 owing to, say, an incident? Does it have to go forward first to reverse (not possible if the issue is in the tunnels) or are there special arrangements for emergencies?

There was a SPAD earlier this year which highlighted the issue, I presume the restricted view from the non-drivers side would be the issue.
There's no signalling issue preventing a reversal so in an emergency it would probably be possible with mitigations.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

For those who remember Guildford back in the 70/80's, p4 could only handle 8 cars as I recall if the train was due to start back towards Woking. The crossover to allow same, and the associated signal, were within the platform limits back then, although they are now off the London end of the platform. A 10 car could just be accommodated between the Down starter and the aforementioned Up signal, but was extremely tight and thus wasn't permitted (AFAIR) due to the driver being unable to see the turn back signal (on p4) from his seat at the London end.

 

[moley]

There is no issue with the 17:11 using P8 if needs be, but I think 4 is preferred purely to keep things moving. In Dec'23, the 1711 departs at 1707 from P5.

In response to the latter question - it can be done by either the TOC or NR planning in case they deem it needing to be moved to avoid clashes.

Normally, if the 1707a/1711d to Redhill used P8, then the 1715a/1716d to Reading can't use P8 as the would conflict at the tunnel's north entrance. 1711d gets routed via P4 to leave P8 for the 1716d.

Access from P4 southbound and to P8 northbound don't conflict between Guildford station and the tunnel.

P6 is full of a Farnham service waiting its 26 minutes between half hourly services. P6 would conflict with P8 anyhow.
Reading service doesn't use P5 as it would otherwise delay the 1719d to Waterloo service from arriving into P5 from Portsmouth.

 

[infobleep]

Normally, if the 1707a/1711d to Redhill used P8, then the 1715a/1716d to Reading can't use P8 as the would conflict at the tunnel's north entrance. 1711d gets routed via P4 to leave P8 for the 1716d.

Access from P4 southbound and to P8 northbound don't conflict between Guildford station and the tunnel.

P6 is full of a Farnham service waiting its 26 minutes between half hourly services. P6 would conflict with P8 anyhow.
Reading service doesn't use P5 as it would otherwise delay the 1719d to Waterloo service from arriving into P5 from Portsmouth.

If that conflicts normally, how come it didn't conflict that week or did it conflict but they just allowed it to and delayed a train as necessary?

 

[moley]

Because of the engineering works, the SWR services didn’t run south of Guildford and therefore less conflicts to manage.

 

[infobleep]

Because of the engineering works, the SWR services didn’t run south of Guildford and therefore less conflicts to manage.

But if the 17:07a/17:11d is only conflicting with the 17:15a/17:16d service, it wouldn't matter.

I assume that isn't the case normally when SWR trains do run south.

 

[infobleep]

Another related question to this. Today due to engineering works, trains to Portsmouth were departing from platform 6 or 8 at Guildford. The platform 8 services where the ones departing at x42 so they avoided the x38 service to Redhill, which uses platform 6.

I was on board the 19:42 on platform 8. The train to Redhill departed at 19:41. We then departed at 19:42 but headed north up the platform slightly.

Then, I think, the driver changed ends and the doors reopened, and after waiting some more we departed 6 minutes late.

The 18:42 departed on time. So was this a one off issue or are the 8 carriage trains having to head north slightly on the platform, before they can depart for signaling reasons?

 

[louis97]

Another related question to this. Today due to engineering works, trains to Portsmouth were departing from platform 6 or 8 at Guildford. The platform 8 services where the ones departing at x42 so they avoided the x38 service to Redhill, which uses platform 6.

I was on board the 19:42 on platform 8. The train to Redhill departed at 19:41. We then departed at 19:42 but headed north up the platform slightly.

Then, I think, the driver changed ends and the doors reopened, and after waiting some more we departed 6 minutes late.

The 18:42 departed on time. So was this a one off issue or are the 8 carriage trains having to head north slightly on the platform, before they can depart for signaling reasons?

There was an issue with the booked platform sharing with the MPV on 3S83 which resulted in a small part of the train being unaccommodated on the platform. Once the MPV had departed the train was moved to be fully accommodated.

 

[infobleep]

There was an issue with the booked platform sharing with the MPV on 3S83 which resulted in a small part of the train being unaccommodated on the platform. Once the MPV had departed the train was moved to be fully accommodated.

Thanks. I must have arrived after MPV had left.