16-25 Railcard Peak Hours Micklefield-York

[spasmj]

Please can someone with greater knowledge of fares clear up some confusion?

My journey is Micklefield-York although the questions impact longer journeys on this line.

The only tickets available for this journey are the Anytime Day Return and, Anytime Day Single. There is no distinction between peak and off-peak.

(1) An anytime day return costs £8.90.

(2) An anytime day return with railcard is £5.90.

(3) The online travel planners only allow the discounted ticket[2] to be purchased after 10am. (Annoying since the trains are hourly at xx:59 but that is beside the point)

(4) Avantix Traveller shows the discounted ticket[2] as having 'no restrictions'.

(5) thetrainline shows the discounted ticket as 'Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel.'

(6) The Northern rail website (http://www.northernrail.org/news/516) says
"Railcard holders get 1/3 off all Standard Class Anytime fares. Senior, HM Forces and Disabled Persons Railcard holders also get 1/3 off all First Class Anytime fares. Please note, minimum fares / time restrictions may apply to tickets bought with a Railcard."

(7) A friend of mine was sold a railcard discounted fare on the train during peak hours on a journey from York - Bradford (the same train as my journey) and was told it was valid because there was no peak/off-peak distinction.
(8.) When tickets were checked at Leeds she was told the ticket was not valid.
(9) Staff at York ticket office later stated that the ticket was indeed valid in peak hours.

Q1: Could I buy the discounted ticket [2] and legitimately use it before 10am (due to [4,5] above)?

Q2: Is there any definitive source (other than online travel planners) for the time restrictions referred to in [6]. I've searched all over the northernrail and national rail sites and can't find anything.

Q3: Even if the answer to Q1 is no, would a discounted ticket [2] be valid on a late running 09.59 service?

 

[First class]

You are confusing the ticket restrictions with the railcard restrictions.

Ticket valid anytime.
Railcard only valid before 10am if you pay the minimum fare of £12.

In this instance, you're better buying the undiscounted ticket, as you could not really use your railcard before 10am.

For longer distance journeys you can use the railcard.

1) You can always use the railcard after 10am
2) You cannot use the railcard before 10am unless you pay the £12 minimum fare.

Q1: Could I buy the discounted ticket [2] and legitimately use it before 10am (due to [4,5] above)?

No. Your journey is not valid until after 10am with a discounted ticket.

Q2: Is there any definitive source (other than online travel planners) for the time restrictions referred to in [6]. I've searched all over the northernrail and national rail sites and can't find anything.

You can contact ATOC, (www.atoc.org) or the train operating company concerned. However, you even say yourself that the website says that time restrictions may apply to tickets bought with a railcard- there's your answer.

Q3: Even if the answer to Q1 is no, would a discounted ticket [2] be valid on a late running 09.59 service?

As long as your train ACTUALLY leaves at or after 10:00am, you'd be fine. E.g. You couldn't board a late running 0930 service that was running late departing at 0959. But if the 0959 arrived at 1007 instead, you'd be fine.

 

[spasmj]

thanks for the quick reply,

Could you tell me where the 10am cut-off comes from? Is it standard for all rail journeys in the UK and if so is there a document or webpage referring to it?

 

[Mojo]

It's in the 1625 Railcard Terms and Conditions: http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/buy-16-25-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions. £12 minimum fare applies before 10am except in JLY and AUG.

Note there is no prohibition on using Railcards before 10am, just that a minimum fare applies. In the case of 7, your friend travelling York to Bradford in peak hours, assuming he was not travelling in JLY or AUG, he would have still found it beneficial to use his Railcard as the return valid at any time is £14.30 without a Railcard, so even by being charged the minimum £12 fare he still saved money.

 

[spasmj]

Thanks for the replies. Thats exactly what I needed.

 

[yorkie]

Micklefield has no ticket office so you buy on board from there. So when the guard comes simply ask for the discounted ticket, if he says you can't use your railcard for the sake of 1 minute, then get a ticket to Pontefract. This costs £3.60 (after 0930) without a railcard. This is valid via Church Fenton as it is the shortest route. You may break / end short your journey at Church Fenton. By then it is 10:05 so you can use your railcard from Church Fenton to York. This costs £2.90.

TOTAL = £6.50

They must sell a combination of tickets if you ask for it. They are not allowed to recommend it but they must issue it on request.

If going north of York it may be cheaper to split at Church Fenton anyway.

For example Micklefield to Sunderland costs £32 with a railcard (valid any time) / £48.50 without a railcard Yes, really

Micklefield to Church Fenton is £2.90 with a railcard / £4.40 without
Church Fenton to Hartlepool is £7.25 with a railcard / £11.00 without a railcard
Hartlepool to Sunderland is £3.70 with a railcard / £5.60 without a railcard

So splitting it up gives £13.85 with a railcard / £21 without a railcard - a little less if you get a Pontefract ticket!

If you were to go to Sunderland on the 0959 from Micklefield, then you would pay £14.55 using the Pontefract ticket without a railcard and then railcard discounted tickets from Church Fenton onwards. That's less than half price of a through ticket.

Someone buying a through ticket with a railcard pays over £10 more than someone without a railcard at all buying a combination of tickets.

 

[spasmj]

Micklefield has no ticket office so you buy on board from there. So when the guard comes simply ask for the discounted ticket, if he says you can't use your railcard for the sake of 1 minute, then get a ticket to Pontefract. This costs £3.60 (after 0930) without a railcard. This is valid via Church Fenton as it is the shortest route. You may break / end short your journey at Church Fenton. By then it is 10:05 so you can use your railcard from Church Fenton to York. This costs £2.90.

TOTAL = £6.50

They must sell a combination of tickets if you ask for it. They are not allowed to recommend it but they must issue it on request.

Thanks for the tip. On the return trip between Church Fenton and Micklefield wouldn't that be invalid as I wouldn't have completed the Pontefract to Church Fenton trip?

I'm guessing the MIK-PFR via CHF journey is cheaper than MIK-CHF because the start and destination are both in the same county/operator area/something similar?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the tip. On the return trip between Church Fenton and Micklefield wouldn't that be invalid as I wouldn't have completed the Pontefract to Church Fenton trip?

I have quoted the price of a return from Micklefield to Pontefract. You would use the return portion of the ticket on the way back.

I'm guessing the MIK-PFR via CHF journey is cheaper than MIK-CHF because the start and destination are both in the same county/operator area/something similar?

Possibly - in this case. But there are many other journeys where this applies for no particular reason.

Fares without a railcard:

Church Fenton - CHF
Micklefield - MIK
Pontefract Stations -PFR / PFM

CHF to MIK £3.10 single / £4.40 return (Anytime )
CHF to PFR £4.10 single / £5.70 return (Anytime )
MIK to PFR £3.10 single / £3.60 return (After 0930) / £5.65 return (Anytime)

So it is usually cheaper to get a ticket to Pontefract. If doing a single from Church Fenton to Micklefield there is no difference in price. If you are doing a return from Church Fenton to Micklefield then it is only benefitial after 0930 to buy to Pontefract as the peak fare to Pontefract costs more.

The main benefit of the Pontefract fare is when doing a return before 0930. This is because an Off Peak Day fare exists for that journey. No such fare exists for Church Fenton to Micklefield or Church Fenton to Pontefract. There are other examples where a cheap off peak ticket exists for a longer journey which makes it cheaper to buy further.

At peak time it used to be cheaper to go from York to Bradford than York to Leeds with a Railcard. This is because the old Saver (now Off Peak), which was valid at any time, to Bradford gave the full discount because the minimum fare on Saver tickets was £8. Although the non discounted fare to Leeds was higher, the minimum fare on the Standard Day tickets was £16 therefore no discount available. About a year ago the minimum fares with a 16-25 railcard were changed to £12 for most tickets. So your friend going to Bradford was given a fare rise by stealth. I did take this matter up with Northern but they dismissed it because they claim that the York to Bradford ticket was for leisure journeys only. The commercial director of ATOC indicated that customers should spend their money on buying CDs instead of buying Saver fares (now Off Peak fares), as there is "no economic justification" for them "because they are being offered to customers who are using their income on a leisure journey rather than going to the theatre or buying CDs".[1] Yes, really!

I wonder if the commecial director of the BPI would say that there is no economic justification for CDs as customers are using their income on CDs for leisure instead of going to the theatre or buying computers to download music onto?

Of course not. ATOC is the only trade association that actually dislikes its customers, invents rules that are impossible for their customers to understand and makes public statements that show utter contempt for customers buying their products by suggesting that they should spend their money elsewhere. I believe ATOC are unique in that respect. I'd be interested to hear of any trade associations that have similar views, but I am confident there will be none.

[1] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article716012.ece