158’s with no air conditioning

[Envoy]

Yesterday I saw a couple of ATW 2 coach 158 trains working on the Cambrian Coast. 3 coaches out of the four had their little windows open - indicating that the air-conditioning was not working. This is absolutely appalling - especially given the temperatures of around 32C - according to my car. I was really pleased that I did not use the trains and could get into my car where the air-con has never failed.

I understand that the shut down of the air-con on the 158’s has to be done in a certain way & that perhaps crews are not doing it correctly - hence the high failure rate and sweltering passengers.

 

[Agent_Squash]

You’ll probably find the air con is in fact working, but unfortunately Liebherr haven’t quite made it possible to cool the outer planet just yet.

When the windows are opened, the air con becomes useless.

 

[Spartacus]

A guard once told me that if the windows on a 158 are opened while the air-con is on it can cause the air con to think it is too cool, so it tries to heat it up further!

 

[rich r]

I've rarely been on a 158 (and I've been on a lot of 158s) where the aircon has been effective once you get more than half the seats filled.

 

[Great_Western]

158's have always been awful in summer with their pathetic air con across every TOC that runs them. That said, the ATW 158's do seem worse than the GWR examples, but thats probably not nessessarily true as I use the ATW 158's more. In this weather, I would actually prefer a pacer, especially on a mainline run.

 

[iantherev]

On a busy day on the Cambrian Coast line having a blast of hot air through the saloons every few minutes at a station stop isn’t going to help.

 

[PHILIPE]

We have this debate every year. Here is last year's which you will probably find useful:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-158-air-conditioning.147386

 

[D2007wsm]

I'm on the blue GWR 2 car 158 atm and the AC does not seem to be working properly and the windows are not open. It is like a sauna on here and when passengers have mentioned to the guard it is hot, he has just shrugged like he isn't interested.

I was on the other green GWR 158 last week and it was exactly the same. Luckily the hybrid 3 car 158 I changed onto at Bristol had it working.

Opening windows customers can open isnt the answer, yesterday this train was a 150/2 and when I got on none of the windows were open. When I did proceed to open 2 where it was so hot, a couple of passengers moaned. So it seems some people are quite content to travel in a mobile sauna.

 

[Bertie the bus]

We have this debate every year. Here is last year's which you will probably find useful:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-158-air-conditioning.147386

Same debate every year and nobody ever does anything to fix it. That's the railway in a nutshell.

 

[superkev]

Same debate every year and nobody ever does anything to fix it. That's the railway in a nutshell.

Yes same debate every time the sun shines and some depots don't seem to think it's that important. Ian Warmsly of Modern Railways magazine was of the opinion that hoppers should be removed so depots would see it as a priority and crews could not misoperate them.
Incidentally I've noticed the centre car of Neville hills finest - redecorated 158 757, has been running round for weeks with the hoppers open.
I stick to my car.
K

 

[edwin_m]

I was on one from Cardiff to Bath last year when they announced a delay at Bristol "to fix an air conditioning fault". All they did was turn the train on the Dr Day's triangle so the driver was driving from the one coach with working aircon. I don't know what they did when it got to Portsmouth.

 

[Envoy]

On a busy day on the Cambrian Coast line having a blast of hot air through the saloons every few minutes at a station stop isn’t going to help.

Is it not the case that the new fleet now on order for Wales & Borders will have doors opening mid coach rather than at the ends? Would this not exacerbate the problem by letting in the heat in summer & the cold in winter? I can understand having this arrangement on frequent stop commuter runs but for long distance west Wales to Manchester - is this really the best arrangement?

Yes, I know that we have this debate about the 158’s very year. I have brought it up again because nothing gets done about the problem. Are the similar 159’s used from Waterloo to Exeter also prone to a lack of air-conditioning?

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

I boarded the ex Brighton 1700 service, a GWR 158 at Havant yesterday (having been kicked off a SN 377 at Chichester which terminated allegedly due to failed air con in the cab), and an announcement said we were diverting to Fratton because of a fault with the train. I was in the front coach which had no air con and if this system also runs the cab, I am suspicious that the reason for going to Fratton and then immediately back north again might have been so the driver could drive from the other end. What with the SWR meltdown yesterday, the whole journey from Brighton to Southampton was a nightmare involving 4 trains. It appears TOC's just gamble on it not being a hot summer, then they get caught out. Unusual for a GWR train to travel from Farlington Jn to Portcreek Jn on the triangle north of Portsmouth I assume.

 

[Envoy]

It would appear that if the drivers are going to cook, then the trains are flipped around at triangular junctions. Of course, the drivers do have the sun bashing through the windscreen - depending on the direction of travel & time of day.

I usually look at the trains when they arrive to check for open windows. I also try and travel on the shady side of the train. It should not be like this and the conditions endured by passengers being boiled alive are bound to deter people from travelling on the routes operated by 158’s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are the similar 159’s used from Waterloo to Exeter also prone to a lack of air-conditioning?

The SWT (now SWR) fleet has a different air con equipment manufacturer, another point that seems to be mentioned fairly regularly...

 

[swt_passenger]

...Unusual for a GWR train to travel from Farlington Jn to Portcreek Jn on the triangle north of Portsmouth I assume.

They do it in the other direction every weekday morning on the first train to Brighton...

 

[LowLevel]

I can assure you the crew hate it as much as you do, have to spend probably more time in it than you do, can do nothing about it and the cabs are even worse than the saloons.

The opening window chestnut is often countered by the theory that moving slightly hotter air is more tolerable than static already hot air that the air con unit is failing to do anything noticeable with.

They've been rubbish for nearly 30 years, nothing is likely to change now.

 

[superkev]

I understand that the shut down of the air-con on the 158’s has to be done in a certain way & that perhaps crews are not doing it correctly - hence the high failure rate and sweltering passengers.

Northern have put covers over the relevant switches to prevent crews just switching it off. Refrigeration systems have to "pump down" when turned off so that oil in the system returns to the compressor. This is achieved by closing a valve and letting the compressor run on for a while. Failed refrigeration systems are most commonly caused by the heat rejection radiators (condenser) being obstructed with dirt or having defective fans. All down to bad design and/or poor maintenance. I remember watering condensers at a computer centre in hot weather to keep things going.
May be of interest.
p.s. I thought SWT 159/8 A/C where also Liebherr. They do win the golden spanner award each year so perhaps they actually maintain theres
K

 

[edwin_m]

Salisbury depot seems to work miracles with 158s/159s that nobody else can achieve - and I don't think any of the reports on here relate to their units. Probably doesn't do any harm that every working passes the depot and being a London commuter TOC they have plenty of spare units in the off-peak, so if there's a problem they can usually get it into the workshop pretty quickly.

 

[Parallel]

I travel on GWR 158s more or less every day and I can tell you the reliability of the aircon is awful. I can’t remember the last time I was on one of their when it was working in all three carriages. That said, the Turbos came along to Bristol and those are arguably even worse. ATW’s 158s also do not have a good record from my observations. SWR’s can be hit or miss. The last one I was on had it working in 2 of the 3 coaches.

It still amazes me that it still hasn’t been sorted. At least SWR’s 159s have double the hopper windows that help a great deal when the train is moving.

 

[route101]

Had the windows open on a Scotrail 158 , was not too bad , the edinburgh tram was worse.

 

[randyrippley]

What do you expect? You're talking of A/C kit with a design dated from the 1980's and intended to use a now non-available refrigerant gas.
Its going to become an increasing problem: trains where the body shells and power train are fine, but the ancillaries are out of date and spares hard to find.
You've two choices: scrap the trains, or downgrade/isolate the ancillaries. In this case strip out the life expired A/C and fit proper opening windows and maybe forced ventilation

 

[SPADTrap]

It would appear that if the drivers are going to cook, then the trains are flipped around at triangular junctions. Of course, the drivers do have the sun bashing through the windscreen - depending on the direction of travel & time of day.

Probably sensible that the man or woman driving your train and thus your life at that moment are cool and concentrated though, so that's why.

 

[Agent_Squash]

What do you expect? You're talking of A/C kit with a design dated from the 1980's and intended to use a now non-available refrigerant gas.
Its going to become an increasing problem: trains where the body shells and power train are fine, but the ancillaries are out of date and spares hard to find.
You've two choices: scrap the trains, or downgrade/isolate the ancillaries. In this case strip out the life expired A/C and fit proper opening windows and maybe forced ventilation

What about fitting new air conditioning?

 

[pompeyfan]

They do it in the other direction every weekday morning on the first train to Brighton...

There’s also a late service on Sunday night from Brighton to Portsmouth operated by GWR to get the stock home.

 

[thaitransit]

These 158 units are terrible for failed aircon. Quite a few times I had to deal with a sauna when using them on the thai railway system. Its one reason additional fans were installed throughout the train and every window can be opened. It was fairly common to see it at the start of its trip with every window and door open.

Its very annoying when its come out of the rail yards still broken and you know that you will have an uncomfortable trip for the rest of the day! At least the thai railways refund the surcharge for aircon and hand out icy cold drinks and cold face towels throughout the trip to help keep people comfortable.

 

[broadgage]

Yes same debate every time the sun shines and some depots don't seem to think it's that important. Ian Warmsly of Modern Railways magazine was of the opinion that hoppers should be removed so depots would see it as a priority and crews could not misoperate them.
Incidentally I've noticed the centre car of Neville hills finest - redecorated 158 757, has been running round for weeks with the hoppers open.
I stick to my car.
K

I can not support the removal of opening windows, a vital facility when the air conditioning breaks as it assuredly will.
What should be done in my view is to make all the windows openable, but to lock them shut when the air conditioning is working.

Electromagnets to hold windows shut are readily available. It would be a simple matter to automatically unlock the windows when the air conditioning has been turned on for say 30 minutes but has failed to reduce the temperature.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Well I had a journey from Cardiff to Gloucester on a 158 yesterday (158839), and the windows were open and the temperature was fine.

 

[whhistle]

When the windows are opened, the air con becomes useless.

Not always.

While I can't speak for air conditioning on the 158s, it's perfectly fine to have windows open and air conditioning on. Not very economic, but it's still useful as you should still be able to feel cool air. It'll go straight out the window into the much warmer air but the whole "air conditioning only works when the windows are closed" is a myth.

Just like someone who said a fridge has to be full of things before it works properly...

Probably sensible that the man or woman driving your train and thus your life at that moment are cool and concentrated though, so that's why.

I see what you're saying but I'd also suggest the train driver doesn't have the lives of the passengers in their hands that much any more. Many routes have TPWS and such, together with speeding indicators that will automatically slow the train down if it's speeding. Cross a red light? Emergency brakes. So I'd say it's actually pretty hard to kill someone by train.
But I agree. Drivers of any kind need reasonable conditions to work in.

 

[CC 72100]

I see what you're saying but I'd also suggest the train driver doesn't have the lives of the passengers in their hands that much any more. Many routes have TPWS and such, together with speeding indicators that will automatically slow the train down if it's speeding. Cross a red light? Emergency brakes. So I'd say it's actually pretty hard to kill someone by train.
But I agree. Drivers of any kind need reasonable conditions to work in.

I'm guessing from this that you've not driven a train?

TPWS is not fitted at all speed reductions, and "avoiding setting off the TPWS (Overspeed) grids" does not necessarily mean that you will automatically be at the right speed for the commencement of the restriction.