153 - the end of the line?

[matacaster]

I do see your point, but it’s a decision we’ve made in this country regarding accessibility from which there is no turning back, thus 153s in unmodified form simply have no future use!

But surely this doesn't apply to heritage railways? If a service was run on kwvr by them wouldn't it be possible to circumvent that rule?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But surely this doesn't apply to heritage railways? If a service was run on kwvr by them wouldn't it be possible to circumvent that rule?

For heritage services yes. For a commuter service advertised as public transport, with through ticketing and acceptance of WYPTE MCards, it would need to meet the accessibility regulations.

 

[adc82140]

I am slightly surprised that TfW haven't shown an interest in these newly off leased units, if nothing else just to add a bit of short term slack to the fleet (would PRM lite be enough?) to allow for the less than ideal reliability of the 769s.

 

[matacaster]

For heritage services yes. For a commuter service advertised as public transport, with through ticketing and acceptance of WYPTE MCards, it would need to meet the accessibility regulations.

Ta!

 

[MML]

Buses have to be accessible, but that doesn't mean they are equipped with a toilet. The legislation prioritises no toilet rather than a non PRM toilet.
So long as the non-PRM class 153 unit only operates attached to a PRM class 150 or 156, then this should be acceptable with only minor interior refurbishment. Space for a wheelchair isn't required in each coach, only within at least one of the coaches.
DfT need to recognise there are many customers requiring seats and those requiring PRM compliant facilities are the minority.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

DfT need to recognise there are many customers requiring seats and those requiring PRM compliant facilities are the minority.

You’re missing a couple of points here, firstly the 153s on Northern are/will be replaced by 156s on a one for one basis so a 2 car DMU will be replacing a single car 153 so that’s a capacity increase whilst still dispensing with rolling stock no longer fit for purpose.

Secondly there are less customers than pre-pandemic anyway.

I still can’t get my head round the fact we’ve rolling stock to replace 153s on Northern and yet people still want to keep them adding additional cost into a decimated business, it’s a bit like buying a replacement car and still keeping the old one!

 

[37424]

You’re missing a couple of points here, firstly the 153s on Northern are/will be replaced by 156s on a one for one basis so a 2 car DMU will be replacing a single car 153 so that’s a capacity increase whilst still dispensing with rolling stock no longer fit for purpose.

Secondly there are less customers than pre-pandemic anyway.

I still can’t get my head round the fact we’ve rolling stock to replace 153s on Northern and yet people still want to keep them adding additional cost into a decimated business, it’s a bit like buying a replacement car and still keeping the old one!

But then Pre Covid Northern OLR had concluded that Northern were substancially down on rolling stock needed.

 

[MML]

Yes, a single car unit is being replaced by a 2-car unit.
But there are still a number of services which are formed of 2-car units, where passengers volumes require 3-car formations.

There may be fewer customers when working from home edicts are in place, but Northern still has a number of services which are regularly overcrowded. The current downturn in traffic is a mere blip and travel at weekends has increased while weekday commuting has fallen.

One of the reasons Northern struggles to cover it's costs is the short train formations. The seat cost reduces when you have a longer formation. The lack of rolling stock also means many routes can only offer an hourly service. The service needs to be half hourly before it can start effectively competing with road transport.

 

[Starmill]

But then Pre Covid Northern OLR had concluded that Northern were substancially down on rolling stock needed.

Battery 323s are probably the new solution to that. There will be too many EMUs for the available electric work. Pairs of 323s would be perfect for Manchester to Southport however, using battery power between Wigan and Southport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2021 ==

Yes, a single car unit is being replaced by a 2-car unit.
But there are still a number of services which are formed of 2-car units, where passengers volumes require 3-car formations.

There may well be right now. But that's because not all of the 156s have actually arrived at Northern. Indeed they've only just started!

Reassess this situation after the May timetable change. To and from Manchester there will be very little two car work.

Things like the Cumbrian Coast or Bishop Auckland services are going to stay two car because why would they need to be more?

After the December timetable change there will be further class 195 release when the Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington services are transferred away.

There is one exception that won't be solved, which is Nottingham services. Unfortunately these are not two cars for want of further rolling stock, but because there's insufficient space at Leeds for them to be longer than two car.

 

[Bevan Price]

Battery 323s are probably the new solution to that. There will be too many EMUs for the available electric work. Pairs of 323s would be perfect for Manchester to Southport however, using battery power between Wigan and Southport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2021 ==


There may well be right now. But that's because not all of the 156s have actually arrived at Northern. Indeed they've only just started!

Reassess this situation after the May timetable change. To and from Manchester there will be very little two car work.

Things like the Cumbrian Coast or Bishop Auckland services are going to stay two car because why would they need to be more?

After the December timetable change there will be further class 195 release when the Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington services are transferred away.

(Pre-Covid)
Some saturday services on Darlington to Bishop Auckland & Saltburn definitely needed more than 2 coaches.

 

[Starmill]

(Pre-Covid)
Some saturday services on Darlington to Bishop Auckland & Saltburn definitely needed more than 2 coaches.

I'm pretty sure that 'summer special' four car services can be provided between Darlington and Saltburn as it is. You wouldn't run them around as four cars all the time because of that though. Also, TransPennine Express services will provide additional capacity.

 

[37424]

Battery 323s are probably the new solution to that. There will be too many EMUs for the available electric work. Pairs of 323s would be perfect for Manchester to Southport however, using battery power between Wigan and Southport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2021 ==


There may well be right now. But that's because not all of the 156s have actually arrived at Northern. Indeed they've only just started!

Reassess this situation after the May timetable change. To and from Manchester there will be very little two car work.

Things like the Cumbrian Coast or Bishop Auckland services are going to stay two car because why would they need to be more?

After the December timetable change there will be further class 195 release when the Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington services are transferred away.

Northern OLR didnt seem to be enthusiastic about Battery EMU's for Windermere, and while fitting batteries might be easier than a Diesel Engine, the record of re-engineering existing trains in this country isn't very good at all. Also from an operator perspective I think I would be wary of limited range Battery Trains running out of Juice compared to DMU's which can go long distances by comparison. I have an EV but as much as I like in some respects, range wise its utter crap compared to a Diesel Car and in cold weather the range drops at least 30% , and I suspect the range of a Battery EMU will be much much lower.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The service needs to be half hourly before it can start effectively competing with road transport.

Yes but the current contract OLR have with the DfT isn’t to improve frequencies but to manage costs…

I do understand your sentiments but this sadly isn’t where the railway is at the moment with the huge decline in usage and subsequent budget gap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern OLR didnt seem to be enthusiastic about Battery EMU's for Windermere, and while fitting batteries might be easier than a Diesel Engine, the record of re-engineering existing trains in this country isn't very good at all. Also from an operator perspective I think I would be wary of limited range Battery Trains running out of Juice compared to DMU's which can go long distances by comparison. I have an EV but as much as I like in some respects, range wise its utter crap compared to a Diesel Car and in cold weather the range drops at least 30% , and I suspect the range of a Battery EMU will be much much lower.

The range can be a lot shorter than a car on an 11 mile branch line with a 25kV supply at one end.

 

[Mat17]

I hope they'll start going for scrap soon, and hopefully one day, every single one will be gone. Awful things.

Far better classes have been chased to extinction.

 

[Meerkat]

One of the reasons Northern struggles to cover it's costs is the short train formations. The seat cost reduces when you have a longer formation.

The seat cost might reduce, but cost increases. And if most of those passengers in the extra seats have just switched from standing in the previous units then you have just made your service even more uneconomic.

 

[D365]

I hope they'll start going for scrap soon, and hopefully one day, every single one will be gone. Awful things.

Far better classes have been chased to extinction.

Network Rail seem keen to keep a few!

 

[matacaster]

Could they be used for new parcels freight services like amazon? (Or are the doors too narrow?)

 

[swt_passenger]

Could they be used for new parcels freight services like amazon? (Or are the doors too narrow?)

Not needed, (but the doors will rule them out anyway), as there are numerous existing and planned parcel conversions of various other 4 car units.

 

[Anonymous10]

Not needed, (but the doors will rule them out anyway), as there are numerous existing and planned parcel conversions of various other 4 car units.

if a dmu was to be my money is on the 150s but they will run till they die i think

 

[D365]

Could they be used for new parcels freight services like amazon? (Or are the doors too narrow?)

That’s what the 768s are targeting.

 

[Starmill]

Northern OLR didnt seem to be enthusiastic about Battery EMU's for Windermere, and while fitting batteries might be easier than a Diesel Engine, the record of re-engineering existing trains in this country isn't very good at all. Also from an operator perspective I think I would be wary of limited range Battery Trains running out of Juice compared to DMU's which can go long distances by comparison. I have an EV but as much as I like in some respects, range wise its utter crap compared to a Diesel Car and in cold weather the range drops at least 30% , and I suspect the range of a Battery EMU will be much much lower.

A round trip from Wigan Wallgate to Southport is less than 35 miles. The battery could then charge up on the trip between Wigan and Stalybridge. It is really not technically difficult.

 

[Greybeard33]

Battery 323s are probably the new solution to that. There will be too many EMUs for the available electric work. Pairs of 323s would be perfect for Manchester to Southport however, using battery power between Wigan and Southport.

Have there been any feasibility studies on retrofitting 323s with batteries? Where would the batteries and power converters be located? How much would axle loadings increase?

 

[D365]

Have there been any feasibility studies on retrofitting 323s with batteries? Where would the batteries and power converters be located? How much would axle loadings increase?

Not in the public domain. Porterbrook (who own the Class 323 and 319 fleets) also own the Class 350/2s and have touted those for battery conversion.

tl;dr I doubt that the 323s will be in scope for conversion, but you never know.

 

[37424]

A round trip from Wigan Wallgate to Southport is less than 35 miles. The battery could then charge up on the trip between Wigan and Stalybridge. It is really not technically difficult.

If the range was reliably good I suspect we would be seeing one in operation by now.

 

[IanXC]

...an objective of “every vehicle being fully PRM” which is noble but has proved completely impossible to achieve in practice.

You mean the objective that has now been achieved?

 

[Meglodon 5]

Hardly ”a few days ago”!

no, but I saw one on passenger service a few days before that post was written