150 cascade - whats happening?

[TheWalrus]

Hi again

I'm just wondering what's happening about the class 150 cascade?

I heard 15 were going to First Great Western from London Midland, but then EMT were getting some. Basically can someone tell me how the cascade is going to work and how many units FGW is gaining, and which current trains it will lose?

Thanks again

Ryan

 

[GNERman]

some from either london midland or london overground will go to northern who need more stock in able to hand back the class 180's on lease...

fgw will get some and atw or emt may get some as well...

 

[TheWalrus]

some from either london midland or london overground will go to northern who need more stock in able to hand back the class 180's on lease...

fgw will get some and atw or emt may get some as well...

So is FGW getting 15 150s then?

 

[90019]

I wasn't aware it was decided/known yet?

 

[TheWalrus]

This isnt really answering the question :/

 

[90019]

This isnt really answering the question :/

Maybe so, but you can't really answer a question if the answer's not known yet.

 

[Donny Dave]

Hi again

I'm just wondering what's happening about the class 150 cascade?

Nothing yet. Northern and FGW are supposed to get the lot between them so they can cascade other stock elsewhere, but don't be surprised if the DfT pull a fast one and send them elsewhere ....

 

[GNERman]

This isnt really answering the question :/

We can't tell you things that haven't been decided yet...

 

[starrymarkb]

Try emailing this guy he might know

 

[Drsatan]

FGW will be getting some 150s, which will replace 142s in use on Devon Metro services that are supposed to be returned to Northern next year. So there will be little or no net increase in capacity.

 

[devon_metro]

The remaining 7 142s are meant to be transferring from Exeter to Northern in June 2010, however its fairly certain that 150s wont be available to replace them at this date, so the date will keep slipping. Northern will then gain 7 well kept 142s vastly different from the state received in Exeter.

 

[northwichcat]

The remaining 7 142s are meant to be transferring from Exeter to Northern in June 2010, however its fairly certain that 150s wont be available to replace them at this date, so the date will keep slipping. Northern will then gain 7 well kept 142s vastly different from the state received in Exeter.

But then not in much different condition to the ex-FNW 142s that Northern kept and did some refurbishing themselves.

December 2010 is a key date related to many stock transfers. The Northern 158s with First Scotrail are due to be returned but Scotrail want to keep them. The 180s with Northern are due to go to East Coast Trains, so if these are returned Northern will need ideally 156s or 158s to replace them as triple 142s would be too long for platform lengths on the Manchester Vic-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston services. However, if Scotrail do get to keep the Northern 158s and East Coast want the 180s then I can't see Northern getting anything better than 150s or being told that the returned 142s have to cover for the 180s.

 

[driver9000]

triple 142s would be too long for platform lengths on the Manchester Vic-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston services.


A 6 car 142 will fit in all platforms that the 180s currently serve, they would be about the same length taking into account a 142s shorter car length. June 2010 is supposed to be when the 180s go back to East Coast

 

[northwichcat]

A 6 car 142 will fit in all platforms that the 180s currently serve, they would be about the same length taking into account a 142s shorter car length. June 2010 is supposed to be when the 180s go back to East Coast

But not all doors can be opened when the 180s stop at stations like Davenport and Blackrod, the doors in the front carriage don't have an adjacent platform when they stop. 142s is all or nothing, quite often nothing when they work in multiple and jam.

A 4 car 156 or 158 is 92m, a 6 car 142 would be 102m. The 10m can make a lot of difference.

 

[yorksrob]

Whoop-de-doo. More Pacers.

 

[Drimnagh Road]

No rush on the 150s to FGW please, means the loco-hauled will be staying.

 

[yorksrob]

Can we have them instead then

 

[GNERman]

Whoop-de-doo. More Pacers.

what would you rather have:-

-a crowded pacer
-a double pacer which is a lot less crowded

In my world it would be no pacer though...

 

[mbonwick]

triple 142s would be too long for platform lengths on the Manchester Vic-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston services.


A 6 car 142 will fit in all platforms that the 180s currently serve, they would be about the same length taking into account a 142s shorter car length. June 2010 is supposed to be when the 180s go back to East Coast

Well, Northern can re-learn the joys of 3xPacers just like BR did.
Mainly these include:
Rear unit dying
Not getting a full brake release on rear unit
Rear unit losing electrical contact, and dumping the whole trains brakes...

 

[yorksrob]

what would you rather have:-

-a crowded pacer
-a double pacer which is a lot less crowded

In my world it would be no pacer though...

Well, I suppose they could just leave out the middle man and send the 150's straight to us rather than Devon. And we'll have those 158's back from Scotrail

 

[90019]

-a crowded pacer
-a double pacer which is a lot less crowded

In my world it would be no pacer though...

So you'd prefer to have no service at all to travel on than one on a pacer?

 

[driver9000]

But not all doors can be opened when the 180s stop at stations like Davenport and Blackrod, the doors in the front carriage don't have an adjacent platform when they stop. 142s is all or nothing, quite often nothing when they work in multiple and jam.

A 4 car 156 or 158 is 92m, a 6 car 142 would be 102m. The 10m can make a lot of difference.

I dont know about Davenport, but every passenger door is at the platform in both directions at Blackrod, the very front/rear door only leads to the luggage van/drivers cab and isnt available for passenger use. I know this as I drive Northerns 180s

Class 142 vehicles are 15.11m in length making a 6 car rake a little over 90m and a Class 156/158 vehicle is 23m making a 4 car rake around the same length as a 6 car 142.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, Northern can re-learn the joys of 3xPacers just like BR did.
Mainly these include:
Rear unit dying
Not getting a full brake release on rear unit
Rear unit losing electrical contact, and dumping the whole trains brakes...

They do that in pairs let alone in 3s!!

 

[GNERman]

So you'd prefer to have no service at all to travel on than one on a pacer?

Did I say that? No.

I personally don't mind Pacers that much at the moment and on the routes they do but in my own world they would be replaced very soon. They are fine for what they do near me at the moment.

 

[Lampshade]

The annoying thing is that if Northern were sub-leasing stock from ScotRail and wanted to keep them, the DfT would tell them where to go :roll:

As for Pacers, they can't be used down to Hazel Grove so the 150s will end up there.

 

[driver9000]

The annoying thing is that if Northern were sub-leasing stock from ScotRail and wanted to keep them, the DfT would tell them where to go :roll:

As for Pacers, they can't be used down to Hazel Grove so the 150s will end up there.

Last I heard was that the Hazel Grove-Preston/Blackpool N-Manchester Victoria services were going over to 158 operation using the ones that return from ScotRail possibly as pairs although the cascaded 150s seem just as likely

 

[northwichcat]

The annoying thing is that if Northern were sub-leasing stock from ScotRail and wanted to keep them, the DfT would tell them where to go :roll:

As for Pacers, they can't be used down to Hazel Grove so the 150s will end up there.

Pacers can go to Hazel Grove from Manchester and could go on to Sheffield that way but are not permitted to do Hazel Grove-Buxton because of the gradient.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I dont know about Davenport, but every passenger door is at the platform in both directions at Blackrod, the very front/rear door only leads to the luggage van/drivers cab and isnt available for passenger use. I know this as I drive Northerns 180s

I've done Hazel Grove to Stockport on a 180 (as a passenger) and just after leaving Hazel Grove the conductor came through asking if anyone wanted Davenport and if they said 'yes' then the conductor told them which door to alight from. Someone's posted on here previously that the situation is the same at Blackrod, but maybe that's not the case.

 

[WillPS]

I very eagerly await this. Should cause even bigger a shuffle than the CT split in 2007. Of course, it all depends on when Bombardier deliver 172s, and seeing as production has yet to begin...

 

[Dave R]

Would it be too naive to suggest a mass order of 172s to cure all overcrowding issues in the country :roll:

apart from electrified lines before some smart**** points that out

 

[WillPS]

This time last year, that was on the cards. Adonis has since decided that a bit of electrification will sort the problem out.

To be honest, a mass order of 2-400 DMUs is the only thing which will sort this out. 172s with corridors would do nicely.

 

[Failed Unit]

This time last year, that was on the cards. Adonis has since decided that a bit of electrification will sort the problem out.

To be honest, a mass order of 2-400 DMUs is the only thing which will sort this out. 172s with corridors would do nicely.

I disagree on this one, when the DMU's have a 30 year life span building more would be crazy. It takes as long to build an EMU as it does a DMU so I think in this case Adonis is right use more EMU's! Some of the short distance electrifications could possibly done in the same time as it take EMU's / DMU's to be built.

Get the Deisels running under the wires away to cascade them to areas that need them.

You don't have to look very hard to find examples. SWT has 158 diagrams on 3rd rail routes throughout the day, these should be replaced by EMU's to get the 158's back into areas that need them. I have already mentioned the voyagers and HST on East Coast that are all wired daigrams.

There are also many examples people can mention of short schemes that will enable EMU running throughout, the Manchester / Liverpool area is a good example of this. The Scottish routes will also release a lot of DMU's back into the pool (Edinburgh - Glasgow, Edinburgh & Glasgow - Dunblane, Glasgsow - Anniesland, Glasgow - Larbert via Cumbernauld).

For lines which will never be viable to wire up then probably have enough DMU's from the 16x and 17x era to keep these lines going for quite a while, then who knows what technology will be around?

We need these coaches now, but removing 100% workings under the wires is a better start. I know people will argue that the Voyagers allow Virgin to work diiversions away from the wires, but surely a 57/3 is more suitable as they are not doing it every day!