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140mph

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ge-gn

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Other threads on this site got me wondering if INTERCITY ever ran any timetabled 140mph running on the ECML, or whether it was purely a pipe dream?

I know ultimately it was a signalling issue that it couldn't be brought in, but the rolling stock, and infrastructure improvements were put in to place (even though it proved to be insufficient on safety grounds).

How close were they? Or did someone one day just say 'no' you can't do it.

Just interested.
 
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najaB

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Other threads on this site got me wondering if INTERCITY ever ran any timetabled 140mph running on the ECML, or whether it was purely a pipe dream?
No, the fastest scheduled passenger services were and still are timed for 125mph max.
 

MrB

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I think that for speeds over 125mph you need cab signalling which isn't fitted to lines other than HS1.
 

cjmillsnun

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I think that for speeds over 125mph you need cab signalling which isn't fitted to lines other than HS1.

Quite true, however some 225 sets were run by INTERCITY at 140 in test conditions using a flashing green signal to give a fifth aspect to ensure that the braking distances could be maintained safely.
 
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Polarbear

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BR went as far as testing a different signalling method on the ECML with a view to 140mph running. This involved a 'double green' aspect, allowing an additional signal spacing between trains. This would have permitted 140mph running whilst allowing for conventional brakes to be used.

Never got beyond some testing as far as I know, and there were certainly no timetabled services.

Virgin have suggested on occasion that higher speeds could be introduced on the Trent Valley (up to 135mph). Not heard anything about that recently though.
 

cjmillsnun

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BR went as far as testing a different signalling method on the ECML with a view to 140mph running. This involved a 'double green' aspect, allowing an additional signal spacing between trains. This would have permitted 140mph running whilst allowing for conventional brakes to be used.

Never got beyond some testing as far as I know, and there were certainly no timetabled services.

Virgin have suggested on occasion that higher speeds could be introduced on the Trent Valley (up to 135mph). Not heard anything about that recently though.

It was a flashing green.
 

Railsigns

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I think that for speeds over 125mph you need cab signalling which isn't fitted to lines other than HS1.

The Cambrian Lines are also fitted with cab signalling (but isn't a high speed line).
 

highdyke

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It's all to do with signal sighting, so 140mph has to wait for ETCS on the ECML and GWML.

On the ECML 140mph is likely Hitchin to Connington, with a couple of exceptions, Stoke Bank, Selby diversion, Skelton- Darlington.

On the GWML 140 is most likely West Drayton-Sonning Cutting, Tilehurst-Bristol Parkway and Box, with the odd exception.
 

Stampy

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It's all to do with signal sighting, so 140mph has to wait for ETCS on the ECML and GWML.

On the ECML 140mph is likely Hitchin to Connington, with a couple of exceptions, Stoke Bank, Selby diversion, Skelton- Darlington.

Werrington Junction (Just north of P'boro) to Stoke Tunnel is the 140mph section on the ECML - i think...
 

leomartin125

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I've heard part of the issue isn't signalling, but the many level crossing's that cross the ECML south of Peterborough. Apparently, to have a line speed higher than 125, you need to remove all level crossing's and build bridges or viable alternatives. I guess this is in case of runners, as 140mph is one hell of a speed to get hit at, or hit something at...
 

najaB

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I've heard part of the issue isn't signalling, but the many level crossing's that cross the ECML south of Peterborough.
That might be part of the reason but it's mainly the signal sighting distance. After all, an impact at 140mph is only 25% more energetic than one at 125mph.
 

Railsigns

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In a way it is partly to do with level crossings, because road closure times increase in proportion to the permissible speed of trains. Above a certain speed, the road closure time becomes unacceptably long if delays to trains are to be avoided.
 

ge-gn

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In the late 80s when I assume 140mph running was first mooted on the ECML was in cab signalling even dreamt of? Surely if the capable rolling stock was built, then was this high speed running more than a pipe dream and was in fact a serious ambition, with the boffins at BR believing the fifth aspect would have been sufficient to provide the necessary sighting.
I suppose I'm just wondering how serious an ambition it was and if they believed it could happen with conventional signalling. Seems crazy to build 140 mph stock without sorting the infrastructure first. A failing of BR I suppose.
 

najaB

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In the late 80s when I assume 140mph running was first mooted on the ECML was in cab signalling even dreamt of?
Can't find it now but there's a video of a system that BR was testing in the late 60s/early 70s - it was an advanced version of AWS that would have repeated the signal aspect into the cab.
 

snowball

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Can't find it now but there's a video of a system that BR was testing in the late 60s/early 70s - it was an advanced version of AWS that would have repeated the signal aspect into the cab.

It has been discussed in a couple of threads in recent months. Didn't it have a permitted speed display?
 
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thenorthern

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Railtrack PLC were going to introduce 140 MPH running on the West Coast Main Line but in the end they had to drop the plan as they were too over budget for in cab signaling.

The UK rail network isn't really designed for 140 MPH running though as much of the West Coast Main Line is shared with other trains.
 

harz99

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Other threads on this site got me wondering if INTERCITY ever ran any timetabled 140mph running on the ECML, or whether it was purely a pipe dream?

I know ultimately it was a signalling issue that it couldn't be brought in, but the rolling stock, and infrastructure improvements were put in to place (even though it proved to be insufficient on safety grounds).

How close were they? Or did someone one day just say 'no' you can't do it.

Just interested.

Not that I'm aware of, however there was the special that achieved a claimed 162 mph in 1989. I worked at Peterborough at the time and was on the then Platform 3 (now 2) when it arrived to set down our boss, Brian Birdsall.

Referred to here:
http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2015/2001-speed-record/

And here:
http://locomotive.wikia.com/wiki/BR_Class_91
 
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thenorthern

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I think there was once a plan to have Diesel trains operating at 140mph but it never happened. I think though the United Kingdom is the only country in the world with diesel trains that operate at 125 MPH.
 

transmanche

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In the late 80s when I assume 140mph running was first mooted on the ECML was in cab signalling even dreamt of?
Gosh yes. As well as those initial BR experiments in the 1960s, the French TGV launched in 1981 with TVM-300 in-cab signalling, developed in the 1970s.

A later development of this system (TVM-430) is used on HS1.
 

cjmillsnun

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Video125 ECML cabride commentary seems to suggest that GNER ran at 140. The also mentioned the flashing green

They definitely did not. The 225 was run at 140 in test conditions (no passengers) by the BR subsidiary INTERCITY, but this was finished before privatisation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It has been discussed in a couple of threads in recent months. Didn't it have a permitted speed display?

No, that was the C-APT system. The system NajaB is thinking of used to display the signal aspects and was tested on the SWML back in the days of the 4REPs
 

TheEdge

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It was - and they still do flash [when the following section's signal is showing either a flashing or steady green].

Does a flashing green still officially mean the next section is also green or better or is it treated as a standard green aspect?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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In the late 80s when I assume 140mph running was first mooted on the ECML was in cab signalling even dreamt of? Surely if the capable rolling stock was built, then was this high speed running more than a pipe dream and was in fact a serious ambition, with the boffins at BR believing the fifth aspect would have been sufficient to provide the necessary sighting.
I suppose I'm just wondering how serious an ambition it was and if they believed it could happen with conventional signalling. Seems crazy to build 140 mph stock without sorting the infrastructure first. A failing of BR I suppose.

To achieve 140mph (240km/h) running there is a lot to do:
- upgrade signalling to ETCS
- upgrade track quality and structures (underbridges etc) for higher speed and track forces, and remove level crossings
- upgrade OHLE (heavier cross-section, constant height)
- update the rule book (safety standards are much higher than they were 25 years ago)

All that assumes that the trains themselves (class 80x and possibly 390s) are fully compliant.

The ECML has ETCS planned south of Doncaster, but is otherwise a 125mph route bar the test section.
The GWML has the track/OHLE in hand, and ETCS will follow.
The WCML is supposedly already fit for 140mph in places (eg TV4) and has TASS rather than ETCS, but NR has never confirmed the capability.
HS2 means they won't be encouraged to implement 140mph south of Crewe, and maybe not even south of York on the ECML.
Unless everything runs at 140mph you will reduce capacity.

It's worth remembering that the APT ran at these speeds over the WCML in the early 1980s.
But within 10 years the route had degraded to the point where even 125mph was not possible without almost complete renewal and upgrade, plus the requirement for in-cab signalling.
 

Paul180

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Can't find it now but there's a video of a system that BR was testing in the late 60s/early 70s - it was an advanced version of AWS that would have repeated the signal aspect into the cab.

I take it you thinking of "SRAWS" - Southern Region/Signal Repeating AWS I have seen it in two videos but only can think of one at the moment. There was all so an early version of "APT" - Automatic train protection.

They get a mention in the rail crash video
https://youtu.be/SxpBzGCKA0w?t=46m10s

and a bit more about the early version of "APT"
https://youtu.be/snyFXNiAneE?t=3m57s
 
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najaB

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Does a flashing green still officially mean the next section is also green or better or is it treated as a standard green aspect?
Pretty sure the rule book now says that it has no special meaning.
 
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