14.2 Query - Split tickets, train not stopping

[_toommm_]

Are you sure? I emailed West Yorkshire Metro to check the position and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.

A friend uses hers to go Sheffield to Leeds on expresses and she's always fine with the Metro Cards - to be fair she often gets away with using the Travelmaster on expresses too...

 

[185]

Are you sure? I emailed West Yorkshire Metro to check the position and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.

It was South Yorkshire, not WY. I suspected the rules still prohibited use on non-stopping trains by reading their conditions, so forced an answer out of them, and they blamed "the private Travelmaster company" which didn't actually exist, the scheme is solely run by the PTE now. Thus, SYPTE aka Travel South Yorkshire are solely to blame for retaining this rule.

 

[TUC]

It was South Yorkshire, not WY.

Yes, but you said 'SYPTE are the only PTE in the country I know of to cling on to the old 'train must stop rule' ', implying that all other PTEs probably did not cling onto it.

 

[unlevel42]

Railway stations do not sell scratch card Derbyshire Wayfarer or Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets in advance.
Sheffield bus interchanges do not sell any Derbyshire Wayfarer products.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

(note you can no longer do multiple non-stopping splits)

Would using (for example):
Crewe - Stafford single
Stoke-Hinckley Season Ticket
Nuneaton - Euston single

Not be valid on a non-stop Crewe-Euston service then?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Would using (for example):
Crewe - Stafford single
Stoke-Hinckley Season Ticket
Nuneaton - Euston single

Not be valid on a non-stop Crewe-Euston service then?

No. It would have been valid under the old NRCoC, but those finished in October 2016, so the last date anyone could have used tickets bought under that regime would have been October 2017 (if they'd bought an annual season ticket just before the end of the NRCoC).

You can, however, now use a Crewe-Rugby and Rugby-London season ticket - something you previously couldn't have done. You can also now use a West Midlands Day Ranger plus a Rugby-London single ticket - another combination you couldn't previously have done.

It represented a loss to those who learned how to do silly levels of splitting on such routes, but a gain to those who wanted to make probably more "legitimate" combinations, such as wanting to extend the validity of a local authority product or a ranger or rover.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

No. It would have been valid under the old NRCoC, but those finished in October 2016, so the last date anyone could have used tickets bought under that regime would have been October 2017 (if they'd bought an annual season ticket just before the end of the NRCoC).

You can, however, now use a Crewe-Rugby and Rugby-London season ticket - something you previously couldn't have done. You can also now use a West Midlands Day Ranger plus a Rugby-London single ticket - another combination you couldn't previously have done.

It represented a loss to those who learned how to do silly levels of splitting on such routes, but a gain to those who wanted to make probably more "legitimate" combinations, such as wanting to extend the validity of a local authority product or a ranger or rover.

Ok, thanks, that makes sense, only one split permitted.

 

[unlevel42]

As the cross boundary validity of the South Yorkshire county wide SYConnect+ ticket has been questioned on several threads I contacted SYPTE and they passed it on to TravelMaster. I would like to thank SYPTE and TravelMaster for promptly answering my query.

The reply in full from TravelMaster is clear as it defines the stations it can be used between :

"TravelMaster are an independent commercial ticketing company that provides multi-modal, multi-operator ticketing for the Sheffield City Region and as such our products comply with our own terms and conditions (http://sytravelmaster.com/terms-and-conditions/) which customers are bound by when they buy one of our products.
Unfortunately, our own terms and conditions are separate from the National Rail Conditions of Travel (as per condition 14.4 of NRCoT) so condition 14.2 of (NRCoT) does not apply to the SYConnect+.
Our SYConnect+ product is valid for journeys on all train journeys which start and finish in the South Yorkshire zone which comprises of 32 stations (http://sytravelmaster.com/zone-map/south-yorkshire/). We’ve paraphrased 2.3.2 from our own T&CS for clarity on this:
“Products that include rail travel can only be used for journeys to or from stations at which passengers can board or alight. They cannot be used as part-payment for journeys that go beyond a Product’s valid zone(s), except as payment for travel between two or more stations within the valid zone where You have purchased a valid ticket for the rest of the journey at the time of departure.
For example, if you purchase a Product that is valid for rail travel in the SYConnect+ zone and You want to travel from Sheffield to Goole on a train that stops at Thorne North, you could use the Product as part payment in respect of Your journey from Sheffield to Thorne North, provided that the service stops at Thorne North and You have a valid ticket from Thorne North to Goole at the time of departure from Sheffield.” ".

 

[_toommm_]

Absolute tosh - I've questioned them on it before and they gave me that reply too. Cannot believe that they still feel this to be acceptable in 2019.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As the cross boundary validity of the South Yorkshire county wide SYConnect+ ticket has been questioned on several threads I contacted SYPTE and they passed it on to TravelMaster. I would like to thank SYPTE and TravelMaster for promptly answering my query.

The reply in full from TravelMaster is clear as it defines the stations it can be used between :

"TravelMaster are an independent commercial ticketing company that provides multi-modal, multi-operator ticketing for the Sheffield City Region and as such our products comply with our own terms and conditions (http://sytravelmaster.com/terms-and-conditions/) which customers are bound by when they buy one of our products.
Unfortunately, our own terms and conditions are separate from the National Rail Conditions of Travel (as per condition 14.4 of NRCoT) so condition 14.2 of (NRCoT) does not apply to the SYConnect+.
Our SYConnect+ product is valid for journeys on all train journeys which start and finish in the South Yorkshire zone which comprises of 32 stations (http://sytravelmaster.com/zone-map/south-yorkshire/). We’ve paraphrased 2.3.2 from our own T&CS for clarity on this:
“Products that include rail travel can only be used for journeys to or from stations at which passengers can board or alight. They cannot be used as part-payment for journeys that go beyond a Product’s valid zone(s), except as payment for travel between two or more stations within the valid zone where You have purchased a valid ticket for the rest of the journey at the time of departure.
For example, if you purchase a Product that is valid for rail travel in the SYConnect+ zone and You want to travel from Sheffield to Goole on a train that stops at Thorne North, you could use the Product as part payment in respect of Your journey from Sheffield to Thorne North, provided that the service stops at Thorne North and You have a valid ticket from Thorne North to Goole at the time of departure from Sheffield.” ".

Whether or not the SY product comes under the NRCoT is really rather immaterial. The NRCoT don't require all tickets you're using to be issued subject to the NRCoT, in order to perform a 14.2 non-stopping split. Indeed it recognises that local authority products may be subject to additional or different conditions.

The wording is far, far to vague to suffice for the purposes of Condition 14.3 (emphasis mine):

Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets.

In fact, Condition 2.3.2 of the SY product says:

Products ... cannot be used as part-payment for journeys that go beyond a Product’s valid zone(s), except as payment for travel between two or more stations within the valid zone where You have purchased a valid ticket for the rest of the journey at the time of departure.

So, you are perfectly entitled to use the SY product to travel between two stations within the zones covered. Nowhere, other than in the example (which, bear in mind, is just an example and does not, itself, constitute the main condition) does it indicate that you must stop at the changeover station.

Add on to this the fact that Condition 14.3 of the NRCoT requires the exclusion to be made clear when buying the ticket, and there is a clear case to say that any intended or attempted exclusion is wholly ineffective.

If I were the holder of a relevant SY product I would certainly not be paying more, or delaying myself onto a stopping train, because of alleged made-up conditions.

 

[Silverdale]

Nowhere, other than in the example (which, bear in mind, is just an example and does not, itself, constitute the main condition) does it indicate that you must stop at the changeover station.

On the contrary. The main condition of the SY product states that it can "only be used for (rail) journeys to or from stations at which passengers can board or alight". I hope it's common ground that you cannot board/alight at a station where the train isn't scheduled to stop. If so, using the SY product for a journey to/from a station where the train isn't scheduled to stop, would not comply with that main condition.

Is there anything, anywhere in the conditions for the SY tickets, which provides any exceptions to that main condition?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

On the contrary. The main condition of the SY product states that it can "only be used for (rail) journeys to or from stations at which passengers can board or alight". I hope it's common ground that you cannot board/alight at a station where the train isn't scheduled to stop. If so, using the SY product for a journey to/from a station where the train isn't scheduled to stop, would not comply with that main condition.

Is there anything, anywhere in the conditions for the SY tickets, which provides any exceptions to that main condition?

But you can combine the SY product with another ticket to constitute one journey, without stopping, and the restriction is on "rail journeys". It is bordering on facetious for them to say that you must make your journey to and from a station where you can board or alight. How else would one get on or off the train?!

If they really wanted to prevent non-stopping splits, they would need to be 100% explicit in saying so, rather than attempting (unsuccessfully) to imply it. The NRCoT don't leave any wiggle room - any exception to 14.2 must be made clear. I don't see any way the SY product terms can be said to be clear by any stretch of logic.

Alternatively they would have to add something to the effect that you won't be considered to be making one journey if you combine the SY product and another ticket.

 

[Silverdale]

But you can combine the SY product with another ticket to constitute one journey, without stopping, and the restriction is on "rail journeys".

That's a completely circular argument. The question is whether the SY product can be combined with another ticket in that manner. Your argument cannot start by simply assuming that it can.

It is bordering on facetious for them to say that you must make your journey to and from a station where you can board or alight. How else would one get on or off the train?!

Well, you are claiming that you can use the SY tickets to make a journey to/from a station where the train doesn't stop, so I suppose they stated it for your benefit.

 

[TUC]

If the SY conditions only give validity at stations where one boards or alights, surely the National Rail conditions not requiring this cannot override SY's conditions. Similar validity has to appear in both sets of conditions.

 

[Silverdale]

If the SY conditions only give validity at stations where one boards or alights, surely the National Rail conditions not requiring this cannot override SY's conditions. Similar validity has to appear in both sets of conditions.

I cannot see that there is any hierarchy or overlap of conditions between travel using the SY product and an NR one. The ticket you are using defines the conditions which apply.

There is also an underlying assumption that the word 'journey' can be used to have any specific meaning you choose. That is not the case. Unless it is specifically defined, the word only has its ordinary english meaning in whatever context it's being used.

You cannot say that because it has a specific meaning in one context, it must have the same meaning in another. A journey can be any act of travelling from one place to another. What those places might be and how the journey may be made will depend on the context in which the word is used. In the case of the SY ticket conditions, that of travel within the SY zone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was South Yorkshire, not WY. I suspected the rules still prohibited use on non-stopping trains by reading their conditions, so forced an answer out of them, and they blamed "the private Travelmaster company" which didn't actually exist, the scheme is solely run by the PTE now. Thus, SYPTE aka Travel South Yorkshire are solely to blame for retaining this rule.

I thought I wasn't going mad on the other thread and that there was a PTE that had done it recently. Thanks for that.

 

[RJ]

Why? There is nothing here that seems to prohibit such an act.

It used to be expressly permitted in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, possibly intended to allow both ends of a season ticket to be extended thus a passenger not having to pay more than once if they were undertaking a longer journey than usual.

However a stop was put to it not too long after a string of issues with it being used in a couple of different ways to generate heavy discounts on long distance express train travel.