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125mph Freight

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swt_passenger

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I would instead look at the feasibility of 90mph intermodal freight.

Yes - a reasonable idea. Intermodal freight able to run at the same speed as the fastest normal passenger trains on the same route would make a lot of difference. As an example, the frequent container services from Southampton to the midlands and the north would cause havoc on the SWML if you attempted to run them at 125 mph (if such capability ever arose with the freight trains).

I think the original questioner could usefully look at the relatively small overlap between the major freight routes and existing 125 mph routes anyway. There isn't that much...
 
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LateThanNever

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There will be load of HST sets possibly becoming surplus to requirements in the next few years. Why not convert them into parcel and mail carrying vehicles in order to create a dedicated high speed parcel and mail network? It could use the surviving former Royal Mail terminals, freight terminals and selected passenger termini. :roll:

That's an original idea.
Indeed I've never understood why Parcel companies do not use trains more for trunking between principal centres - although it may have something to do with the caged pallet sthat they mostly seem to use - they are probably difficult to load securely on trains?
 

HSTEd

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Because lorries are cheaper and there is no way to practically compel the private sector to use rail.
 

Bald Rick

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That's an original idea.
Indeed I've never understood why Parcel companies do not use trains more for trunking between principal centres - although it may have something to do with the caged pallet sthat they mostly seem to use - they are probably difficult to load securely on trains?

Because each parcel company rarely has more than one arctic load of parcels between any principally centres, never enough to make a worthy train load.
 

Shimbleshanks

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That's an original idea.
Indeed I've never understood why Parcel companies do not use trains more for trunking between principal centres - although it may have something to do with the caged pallet sthat they mostly seem to use - they are probably difficult to load securely on trains?

Cost and also because parcels companies run hub and spoke networks, mostly overnight. The volume on any individual leg would not be enough to fill a train service and also there is a need to run services in the small hours of the morning, which would now be a real problem for the rail industry. Also, apart from Scotland, most of the legs from sorting hubs in the Midlands to various parts of the country are quite short - typically something like Midlands to Manchester.

Various proposals and studies have been made on using rail for parcels but, part from a couple of short lived services - DHL used rail for a run between Walsall and Scotland using parcels vans I remember - these have never come to anything.
There was the Red Star service, of course, which mostly used brake van capacity on passenger trains, but that is long gone. The market for premium same-day services, which is what Red Star essentially offered, has probably contracted sharply with broadband Internet.

Changing the subject slightly, as a boy (ie a long, long time ago) I seem to remember reading that the Japanese Shinkanshen originally proposed running fast freight trains at night, though I have a feeling the proposed top speed was only around 80mph.
Don't know why the idea never came about but I'd imagine it was the need for intensive maintenance of high speed lines during the night when passenger trains aren't running - possibly in the early days of high speed rail no realised how much care the tracks would need - coupled with a lack of demand.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Because each parcel company rarely has more than one arctic load of parcels between any principally centres, never enough to make a worthy train load.
Only routes where it might be slightly viable would be between distribution hubs
 

BantamMenace

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Changing the subject slightly, as a boy (ie a long, long time ago) I seem to remember reading that the Japanese Shinkanshen originally proposed running fast freight trains at night, though I have a feeling the proposed top speed was only around 80mph.
Don't know why the idea never came about but I'd imagine it was the need for intensive maintenance of high speed lines during the night when passenger trains aren't running - possibly in the early days of high speed rail no realised how much care the tracks would need - coupled with a lack of demand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M250_series this example exists in Japan. Be good to one day see a fleet of something similar distributing intermodal freight from the Transiberian at the Belorussian or Ukrainian borders to all reaches of Western Europe. Under I read an article on the Shanghai to Hamburg intermodal service I didn't realise just how great the time savings were over the equivalent Far East to Europe sea journey.
 

Shimbleshanks

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M250_series this example exists in Japan. Be good to one day see a fleet of something similar distributing intermodal freight from the Transiberian at the Belorussian or Ukrainian borders to all reaches of Western Europe. Under I read an article on the Shanghai to Hamburg intermodal service I didn't realise just how great the time savings were over the equivalent Far East to Europe sea journey.


This though is using the 'classic' narrow gauge rail system rather than the standard gauge Shinkansen high speed lines.

There have been trails of something very similar in Europe. What was then Exel Logistics (now part of DHL) ran a trial around 20 years ago using MPV vehicles to carry commercial freight. And there was a short-lived attempt by DB to move urgent freight using similar vehicles between Frankfurt airport and various points in Germany.
Unfortunately, neither of them amounted to anything long term.
 

TheGrew

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The only way I think we will ever see 125mph freight is if royal mail replace the 325s with something quicker. In my head I am thinking some sort of specially configured 395. As I could see the dual voltage potentially being useful to reach places like Gatwick or Southampton (though the latter shall by converted to ohle)

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

ChiefPlanner

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Think the SNCF ran some 100 mph perishable - orientated container services from Cerbere to Paris via Lyon for a while. The major market I would guess is mail / parcels - but you need volume.....

I think personally that reliability , not high speed is the answer for freight .....75 mph seems about right.
 

BantamMenace

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Does anyone know the track access charge for an intermediate service running from the south coast to Scotland roughly?

Could a market ever be created for a swapbody service originating on the south coast with stops around London, the Midlands, Yorkshire, the North east or west and finally Scotland. With stops of around an hour at each. I'd imagine if you can get big players such as royal mail, DHL, stobart, wh malcolm and the supermarkets to buy into swapbodies over standard curtainsided hgv trailers you could make a viable service and a step change if it were price competitive, not to member they love to boast of reduced co2 emissions.

I think the key is a clockface timetable to these turn up and go services. If a train of around 25-30 swapbodies left set hubs stopping at all other hubs on its way to its final destination in a set pattern bi-hourly it could create a step change but you'd need the big players to buy in first and buy/guarentee a certain percentage of the capacity.
 

HSTEd

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775m Gauge Changing High Speed EMU for La Poste esque palletised service.

With all the High Speed lines appearing in China you would probably route via Urumqi and Kazakhstan to reach Shanghai now.
 
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There will be load of HST sets possibly becoming surplus to requirements in the next few years. Why not convert them into parcel and mail carrying vehicles in order to create a dedicated high speed parcel and mail network? It could use the surviving former Royal Mail terminals, freight terminals and selected passenger termini.

Because who would want old (and potentially unreliable) diesel trains running hundreds of miles on newly-electrified lines? One of the differences between mail/parcels and other freight is that the former typically needs to get between major population centres, most of which have or soon will have electrified lines, ergo electric trains are preferable; other freight, typically between factories/docks/quarries/power stations etc, is better suited to diesel traction.
 

plarailfan

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Does anyone know the track access charge for an intermediate service running from the south coast to Scotland roughly?

Could a market ever be created for a swapbody service originating on the south coast with stops around London, the Midlands, Yorkshire, the North east or west and finally Scotland. With stops of around an hour at each. I'd imagine if you can get big players such as royal mail, DHL, stobart, wh malcolm and the supermarkets to buy into swapbodies over standard curtainsided hgv trailers you could make a viable service and a step change if it were price competitive, not to member they love to boast of reduced co2 emissions.

The problem is there are very few swap body / container terminals, particularly around the south coast. These kind of facilities can often cost £ millions to build from scratch, so although the big players might be interested, the financial outlay required would soon outweigh the benefits.
A lot of freight such as oil, industrial rolls of paper, stone and "Binliner" workings may cover long distances, but they are not necessarily very time sensitive and simply don't need to run at speeds in excess of 75MPH.
There is a possibility of shifting loads when large items with a high centre of gravity are being carried at high speed and extra restraints, retaining straps, etc could be required potentially incurring extra time and staff.
I've often thought the huge TNT parcel depot at Atherstone would make an excellent rail served terminal, but it depends if enough traffic could be generated to justify the expense, also depending on the destination being rail connected.
Royal mail traffic would be absolutely ideal for moving around by high speed rail, as it generally is very time sensitive and lightweight. For some reason, long distance mail often goes by air these days
 
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cjmillsnun

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I've often thought the huge TNT parcel depot at Atherstone would make an excellent rail served terminal, but it depends if enough traffic could be generated to justify the expense, also depending on the destination being rail connected.
Royal mail traffic would be absolutely ideal for moving around by high speed rail, as it generally is very time sensitive and lightweight. For some reason, long distance mail often goes by air these days

Holly Lane? TBH not worth it, they'd have to completely re-do their trunk network and connect the other trunk depots to the railway as well. Most of their trunk network depots are near Motorways.

For Royal Mail, it makes more sense, and it could certainly be a good use for the HSTs when they come off lease, but I suspect they don't want to. They're only using their 325s with extreme reluctance, they'd rather it was all moved by air or trucks.
 
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Topgun333

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Obviously another issue about high speed freight would be that no current locos could haul an intermodal or heavy haul load at high speed. The 92s are the fastest of those that can at 87mph and the 67s, 68s, 91s which are fast enough couldn't haul those weights at that 125mph.
 

colchesterken

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If they can convert 321 s to carry post at 100 mph class 325. Could they short form HST say 6 converted mk 3 s to carry those cages on wheels to carry parcels and internet ordered stuff (light weight of course) at high speed , after the become redundant from high speed passenger work
even supermarket stuff
 

HSTEd

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My apologies, found it linked on an obscure American rail blog and assumed it wasn't well known.

Chris

Was that 'Reason and Rail'?
I know the person who puts that blog together (from an online game group of all places) and he threw it to me once yeeeears ago.
It is fun.
 

bronzeonion

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Isnt there an example in Japan i think it is of a container carrying EMU capable of three figure speeds? Not sure if our loading gauge would allow for this though.

Also, all these comments are highly constructive so thank you, my project doesnt have to make it viable, just give all the right reasons as to why it isnt viable, which i didnt think for a second it would be to be honest.

Oh no, there are definitely freight EMUs as such but not many and definitely do not reach 125mph! 120kmh is the normal maximum for conventional trains in Japan.
 

WestCountry

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If they can convert 321 s to carry post at 100 mph class 325. Could they short form HST say 6 converted mk 3 s to carry those cages on wheels to carry parcels and internet ordered stuff (light weight of course) at high speed , after the become redundant from high speed passenger work
even supermarket stuff
The 325s weren't converted, but built new, and being dual-voltage are most closely related to the 319s. ;)

The problem with converting HSTs would be the doors - the existing openings are far to small to load parcels trolleys through, and cutting new holes in the (load-bearing) bodyshell would be very expensive. :(
 

Taunton

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Freight will always move at the lowest £/ton-mile
Not at all. Airlines have long carried much freight at 600 mph, both in specialist aircraft and under the floor of regular flights. Look in your supermarket for beans from Kenya or Colombia. They didn't come by ship. And they end up little different in price to beans grown down the road, despite the transport costs.

The French have long had all-mail units on the TGV, which run at TGV speed.
 

Shimbleshanks

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One relatively simple way to have 125mph freight would be to go back to carrying mail and parcels type traffic in passenger trains. I've always felt that there is potential if an operator was serious about making it work commercially and operationally.

It could be ideal for small, just-in-time deliveries. For example, replenishing stocks for supermarkets during the day where something was needed more quickly than could be accomplished on the regular overnight truck delivery. Urgently needed spares for machinery; perishable goods like seafood, even, if a suitable refrigeration system can be devised.

What it would need, among other things is for the passenger operators to buy into the concept and for new passenger trains to be introduced with lockable freight/luggage areas. Maybe these could be 'utility' areas with fold down seats for use in passenger peaks and at other times could be an area for freight, bikes, pushchairs and so on.

It would also need careful management at interchanges to makes sure that freight was transferred securely and swiftly - not the old British Rail system of leaving mail bags lying around unattended on trolleys.

Sure, there are a lot of problems to be overcome but the process is essentially no different from the majority of airfreight, which moves in the bellyholds of passenger planes.
 
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