125, class 43, HST

[MCR247]

TWith any luck the HSTs will out live voyagers.

'Course....

 

[RobShipway]

The most annoying thing about voyagers is the sound from the under floor engines and the constant drone from them. I hope voyagers don’t have longevity unlike HSTs. With any luck the HSTs will out live voyagers.

I think you may find that like the Class 47 which has been around for about 40 - 50 years, thatthe class 43 will go on and on to the extent that we may see another re - engine or they may be rebulit in some way yet.

Noy sure what the latest is on IEP, but there was talk of having an electric engine one end of the train and a class 43 the other end even if it is a short term gap until the whole of the GW mainline can be electrified. So, that being the case I cannot see them stopped being used until at least 2030 - 2040.

 

[junglejames]

That's your opinion which you're welcome to, although I agree about the HST. Personally I'd rather have a Pendolino (which was assembled in the UK not built in the UK) over a slower train anyday. For me, it's all about getting from A to B as quick a possible. Your mk III, class 87 and 30 minutes longer is an enthusiasts point of view not a commuters point of view.

It depends on the commuter.
Some commuters may be perfectly happy with the comfier, more spacious mk 3.
As has been said though, its not on the whole commuters that use pendos.
I accept that the shorter journey times have done a lot for the WCML, but my problem is the trains now in use on the line. I would have used an uprated 91 and mk 4s, with tilt. To me so much nicer than a pendo.

Dont worry though. When the pendos become life expired, and are replaced by the 90s and 87s, im sure you'll be the first (and only) person on the list of people wanting to buy them!!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you may find that like the Class 47 which has been around for about 40 - 50 years, thatthe class 43 will go on and on to the extent that we may see another re - engine or they may be rebulit in some way yet.

Noy sure what the latest is on IEP, but there was talk of having an electric engine one end of the train and a class 43 the other end even if it is a short term gap until the whole of the GW mainline can be electrified. So, that being the case I cannot see them stopped being used until at least 2030 - 2040.

The train wont have good enough acceleration when on non electrified lines with just one power car.
The success of the HST has partly been down to its simplicity. All these ideas I see for this hitachi piece of junk sounds far too complicated.
Im my eyes, a replacement HST should be purely diesel. You arent going to get a single suitable diesel loco to go 125 on its own, with a train. Just ask GM and EWS!! and underfloor engines has to be a non starter if we intend to keep Intercity travel alive. Plus a diesel/ electric powercar is too complicated, and will probably end up not being perfect in either mode.
Design an upgraded class 43, with a more powerful engine, and more modern alternators, traction motors and bogies, to allow better acceleration, and the ability to haul up to 10 coaches with ease.
Keep it all fairly simple though. Nothing too complicated.
Then build a fleet of new Mk5 coaches, based on the Mk3.
Oh, and the powercars would look remarkably similar to the current 43s. As has been said, they dont need altering.

Then pass by Loughborough and pop the design on Mr Brush's desk.
Hey Presto, your new HST, signed sealed and delivered, and none of this tooing and froing by governments and wannabee train builders from Japan.
If you want a new high speed electric train, then just design one of them as well. Loco hauled though. Remember Intercity travel is to be maintained.
If the wires dont go up North of Edinburgh, or all the way to Penzance. Then looks like the new HSTs will be under the wires for nearly 400 miles. May not be as eco friendly, but it is whats best for the railways.

 

[Geezertronic]

Dont worry though. When the pendos become life expired, and are replaced by the 90s and 87s, im sure you'll be the first (and only) person on the list of people wanting to buy them!!!!!!

Wake up son, it's time to go to get up

The 87s will all be in Bulgaria by then, the 90s will probably follow them

 

[junglejames]

Wake up son, it's time to go to get up

The 87s will all be in Bulgaria by then, the 90s will probably follow them

90s have far too much life left in them

 

[Geezertronic]

90s have far too much life left in them

And the 390s don't for what reason?

 

[Train wasp]

Knowing the UK rail industry we will buy a Mk2 version of the Voyagers because it’s cheaper to build. If the HST’s are to continue in front line service for the foreseeable future would it make senses to invest in making a Mk 5 coach and using the existing power cars to make up new HST sets? Maybe a better options than buying in a new and untried HST2.

 

[Geezertronic]

Knowing the UK rail industry we will buy a Mk2 version of the Voyagers because it’s cheaper to build. If the HST’s are to continue in front line service for the foreseeable future would it make senses to invest in making a Mk 5 coach and using the existing power cars to make up new HST sets? Maybe a better options than buying in a new and untried HST2.

I thought the 222 Meridians were effectively the Mk2 220/221s Voyagers?

 

[MCR247]

They are, and good trains they are too

 

[LE Greys]

The first true British Rail train. Sure, we had the MkI and the MkII, but locomotives tended to be variable depending on which region you were in. When the HST came along, it got everywhere. The APT cascade would have put them on Waterloo-Exeter, Liverpool Street-Norwich and Trans-Pennine, a prospect we can only dream about today. I suspect that APT would have been cut back to WCML only (the ECML and GWML were both supposed to get them at one point). Still, good designs prosper with a bit of luck.

I fully expect to travel on the "HST Golden Jubilee" in 2023.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The train wont have good enough acceleration when on non electrified lines with just one power car.
The success of the HST has partly been down to its simplicity. All these ideas I see for this hitachi piece of junk sounds far too complicated.
Im my eyes, a replacement HST should be purely diesel. You arent going to get a single suitable diesel loco to go 125 on its own, with a train. Just ask GM and EWS!! and underfloor engines has to be a non starter if we intend to keep Intercity travel alive. Plus a diesel/ electric powercar is too complicated, and will probably end up not being perfect in either mode.
Design an upgraded class 43, with a more powerful engine, and more modern alternators, traction motors and bogies, to allow better acceleration, and the ability to haul up to 10 coaches with ease.
Keep it all fairly simple though. Nothing too complicated.
Then build a fleet of new Mk5 coaches, based on the Mk3.
Oh, and the powercars would look remarkably similar to the current 43s. As has been said, they dont need altering.

Go for the same basic design and the same engine (MTU 16V4000) but married to modern alternators and motors with a standard 1,000V d.c. ETS. A 16V4000 can produce a good 3,000 horsepower, and has to be limited in the current power cars to avoid burning out various bits of equipment. One problem is modern crashworthiness requirements, which might result in a different look to the cab. If this has to happen, add buffers. Also perhaps some shunting controls in the other end, if not a full-width cab.

The MkV could then come in direct from CAF (same as the Irish MkIV, which might get confusing, but designed to go faster). They would theoretically be compatible with any locomotive, and should be able to run with MkIII or MkIV loco-hauled stock. Also, make sure there are enough trailers to extend everything to 2+10, which is probably as long as you can go (certainly at King's Cross).

 

[Zoe]

This may sound good in theory but remember the dft have ruled out keeping HSTs in service and we will get either a fleet of EMUs which can be hauled by a diesel locomotive off the wires or a bi-mode MU with pantographs and underfloor engines.

 

[junglejames]

True. We'll say the same thing when the Pendolino's go in 30 years time...

If I do, you have my permission to shoot me!!
If they are still around in 30yrs.

Tell you what, whilst your on your pendo fairwell tour in 30yrs, I'll be on my 47 hauled mid life crisis tour!!!
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And the 390s don't for what reason?

My answers, in order of how true they are-

1- I was being ever so slightly tongue in cheek.
2- I never said they didnt have life left in them now. I just said they would be replaced by 90s. That could be in 15yrs time.
3- Since when did a 'tin coke can' have a long life?!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Go for the same basic design and the same engine (MTU 16V4000) but married to modern alternators and motors with a standard 1,000V d.c. ETS. A 16V4000 can produce a good 3,000 horsepower, and has to be limited in the current power cars to avoid burning out various bits of equipment. One problem is modern crashworthiness requirements, which might result in a different look to the cab. If this has to happen, add buffers. Also perhaps some shunting controls in the other end, if not a full-width cab.

The MkV could then come in direct from CAF (same as the Irish MkIV, which might get confusing, but designed to go faster). They would theoretically be compatible with any locomotive, and should be able to run with MkIII or MkIV loco-hauled stock. Also, make sure there are enough trailers to extend everything to 2+10, which is probably as long as you can go (certainly at King's Cross).[/QUOTE]

If they are going to kill us with these daft crash worthiness regulations, then just do a major rebuild of the current powercars. Keep the shell, and just replace everything inside!! See if that gets round it.

I dont think we will be needing 3000hp per powercar, so may still want to be derated a bit, but not as much.
As for the coaches. Has to be built in Britain, as have the powercars. Time to get BREL back up and running!!
Brush for the powercars, BREL for the coaches.
Unfortunately I can only see any of this happening if they put me in charge, which they're not going to! Too many good ideas which arent risky or bad enough for the current lot of thinkers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This may sound good in theory but remember the dft have ruled out keeping HSTs in service and we will get either a fleet of EMUs which can be hauled by a diesel locomotive off the wires or a bi-mode MU with pantographs and underfloor engines.

Yeah I know. Just living in dreamland right now. How the railways are going to slowly go downhill. I can just see it.
Then again. Havent the Dft put a stop to HS2 for now? Thats what i heard. Apparently Hitachi kicked up a stink when they did.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I dont mean HS2. I mean HST2

 

[Geezertronic]

1- I was being ever so slightly tongue in cheek.

I take all your comments tongue in cheek

You might as well make any new power cars Diesel Electric and fit Pantographs to them all to make them dual power too

 

[junglejames]

I take all your comments tongue in cheek

You might as well make any new power cars Diesel Electric and fit Pantographs to them all to make them dual power too

Nah, already said I wouldnt do that. Makes things too complicated, and invaribly leads to a loco that isnt perfect in either mode.

 

[DarloRich]

There has been lots of talk of bi mode/electric/diesel etc. We have a perfectly good design which must be sat in a draw in Derby RTC, get it out, dust it down, tart it up for the 21st centuary, build LOTS, build new coaches based on mk3 III (obviusly updated sliding doors wifi etc - cos normals cant open a door!) hey presto, new IC trains. Surely much cheaper than imports or new build

My view is that we will get corridor end EMU units that can be hauled off wires/underfloor power DMU ala Voyagers rather than a comfortable train

 

[Geezertronic]

(obviusly updated sliding doors wifi etc - cos normals cant open a door!)

I think the problem is that "normals" as you call them cannot shut the doors when they get on or off which I guess means the poor dispatcher/guard has to run up and down to close the doors manually

 

[DarloRich]

I close the doors for the train manager! We are encouraged in the company i work for to ensure a punctual service!

 

[87031]

Pendolino farewell tour, can you imagine that?

No i cant imagine that....who would go on it...rail enthusiasts hate them
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not just the power cars but the mk III coach is a design classic. The HST is the greatest train ever produced in this country, and everything since has been a let down by comparison. Pendolinos? Give me strength. Sh*t smartie tubes with no windows and a cheap plasticky interior full of claustrophobia. Give me a mk III coach, a class 87, and 30 minutes longer to enjoy the experience getting to Glasgow.

I remember being 6 years old and being brought by my dad to Cardiff to sample these new trains. We took a deltic to the Cross, and as we walked across the Lawn at Paddington there was a row of HSTs, quite the most impressive sight I've ever seen. I was awestruck to the depth of my 6 year old soul.

I was less impressed when my dad told me that these trains would soon be on the ECML and the deltics would be displaced

Thats part of what is great about HSTs the Mk3!...simply by far the best coach built..its perfect cos its smooth has an airy feel about it and comfort as well. I totally echo your thoughts on the 87 to Glasgow as well...theres no better way to get there!

 

[junglejames]

No i cant imagine that....who would go on it...rail enthusiasts hate them
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thats part of what is great about HSTs the Mk3!...simply by far the best coach built..its perfect cos its smooth has an airy feel about it and comfort as well. I totally echo your thoughts on the 87 to Glasgow as well...theres no better way to get there!

Somebody that knows a decent coach when he sees one!
I remember once heading up to Glasgow just for the night, because they were diverting via the S&C for the weekend (back in the days when loco haulage still just about existed). In the end we ended up diverting via Birmingham, S&C and the GSW because of flooding at Lockerbie. Add in the rediculous amounts of time we stood in Preston and Carlisle, and the London to Glasgow leg took about 9-10hrs, and I wasnt going to get any time in Glasgow. I was due straight back the next morning.
The train manager came round handing out complaints forms because of the lateness of the train. I never bothered taking one. I had nothing to complain about. I told him the GSW was an added bonus. Nothing to complain about.
Despite the lateness of the train, that weekend remains one of the best weekends of travel ive ever had.
I couldnt have done that on a pendo. Id have bailed at Watford!!!

Cant forget the 90s as well though. 87s or 90s. Doesnt bother me.
Saying that, I have many happy memories of heading up to Glasgow behind 87s, sitting in the front coach, head out the window departing every station. Those 87s make such a brilliant noise when pulling away.
Departing Oxenholme heading Northbound behind a 90 was always good though.

 

[87031]

an 87 leaving Oxenholme ready for the climb up shap....used to love it on sunny mornings on 1S47 in the autumn swinging from under the M6 round the bend near Lune Gorge.....Mk3 front coach traction motors screaming with the autumn colours in full view.....its what i will remember the West Coast for and its what the 87s where built for an performed impecably for over 30 years. Superb British engineering and sorely missed.:cry:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No i cant imagine that....who would go on it...rail enthusiasts hate them....

People grow fond of what is infront of them though, take the 50s on the Western and the Deltics on the East Coast, besides which, judging by the current trend, they'll still be a **** load better than what is built to replace them!

 

[junglejames]

an 87 leaving Oxenholme ready for the climb up shap....used to love it on sunny mornings on 1S47 in the autumn swinging from under the M6 round the bend near Lune Gorge.....Mk3 front coach traction motors screaming with the autumn colours in full view.....its what i will remember the West Coast for and its what the 87s where built for an performed impecably for over 30 years. Superb British engineering and sorely missed.:cry:

HEAR HEAR.
Fantastic engineering, and still got plenty of life left in them. Shame nobody could see that. Unfortunately all people seem to care about now is modern plastic EMUs.

The good thing about the 90s leaving Oxenholme was the acceleration they still had. Those machines are immense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People grow fond of what is infront of them though, take the 50s on the Western and the Deltics on the East Coast, besides which, judging by the current trend, they'll still be a **** load better than what is built to replace them!

Some fool thats just being born as we speak may well go on the fairwell tour. They wont know any better. But people that knew what we had before pendos are highly unlikely to venture onto this fairwell tour.

Its like people that remember Westerns, 50s and Deltics still dont like 47s and HSTs. I mean crikey, look at the nicknames they gave them when they first came out, and the names they still call them.
People that remember the past, dont change. Its newbies that start liking the new stuff.
Talking of nicknames that haters give the new trains, I wonder if the 90 haters realised how much their nickname would come back and bite them!!!

 

[Geezertronic]

If only the railways were run for the enthusiasts huh

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If only the railways were run for the enthusiasts huh

I can imagine. No train would ever run, because one person doesn't like the loco pulling it, one person says that those services never actually ran that route anyway, and the rest would say that if was in the wrong livery.

 

[junglejames]

I can imagine. No train would ever run, because one person doesn't like the loco pulling it, one person says that those services never actually ran that route anyway, and the rest would say that if was in the wrong livery.

I dont want it run for the enthusiast, as that wouldnt work. But no harm in having decent trains though.

 

[43021HST]

I close the doors for the train manager! We are encouraged in the company i work for to ensure a punctual service!

Dont you mean Guard

 

[4SRKT]

If only the railways were run for the enthusiasts huh

I can't really see why you're saying this, as you're just an enthusiast who happens to like Pendolinos.

 

[Geezertronic]

I can't really see why you're saying this, as you're just an enthusiast who happens to like Pendolinos.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with that, I don't sit here claiming that Pendos should be on all routes, or that the 90s + Mk3 + DVT are old hat and should be scrapped, or wishing that slower trains served my route for sentimental reasons do I?

I don't really care what traction gets me from A to B but since the Pendos are the quickest the WCML has to offer and being a regular user of them, I don't follow the sheep mentality of slagging them off because they replaced the "beloved" loco hauled services etc...

Be nice to see the Pretendolino on the 1843 during the week if it does happen but I won't be leaving work early specifically to catch it.

 

[LE Greys]

I may like HSTs, but I don't see anything wrong with Deltics, they were a worthy successor to the A4s (unlike several of the overweight, underpowered lumps of lead on other regions). Still, I also happen to like Lockheed Constellations, but wouldn't recommend putting one on LHR-JFK. Every dog has its day. Klondykes were faster and more powerful than Stirling singles, C1s faster and more powerful than Klondykes, A1s faster and more powerful than C1s, A3s faster and more powerful than A1s, A4s faster and more powerful than A3s, Deltics faster and more powerful than A4s, HSTs faster and more powerful than Deltics. Improvement after improvement, each one lasting roughly a decade. Now we have 91s as well. What replaces them should be even faster and even more powerful without sacrificing comfort. If we get Voyagers for instance, then that is a travesty.

Maybe the Deltics should have gone somewhere else, to be retired in the 1990s perhaps, but surely it is better to get to Newcastle in three hours rather than four.

 

[junglejames]

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with that, I don't sit here claiming that Pendos should be on all routes, or that the 90s + Mk3 + DVT are old hat and should be scrapped, or wishing that slower trains served my route for sentimental reasons do I?

I don't really care what traction gets me from A to B but since the Pendos are the quickest the WCML has to offer and being a regular user of them, I don't follow the sheep mentality of slagging them off because they replaced the "beloved" loco hauled services etc...

Be nice to see the Pretendolino on the 1843 during the week if it does happen but I won't be leaving work early specifically to catch it.

Who else follows the sheep mentality you mention? I think you will find that everybody has a reason for hating the pendos, and its not because they replaced a loco hauled train. Its because they replaced a more comfortable, spacious, on the whole, more pleasant, train.