12 car Pendolinos?

[6Gman]

I'm told that Chritian Wolmar has suggested that 12 car Pendolinos could be practical.

Opinions?

Would they fit in key platforms? [The 11cars seem to be pretty snug already in places!]

And what would be the impact on performance?

 

[Manchester77]

Don't think they would fit into Manchester Piccadilly. Probably be able to at Caledonian Sleeper serviced stations (Some platforms at Euston, Crewe, Glasgow etc)

Doubt there'd be much impact on performance but after all there's more stuff to go wrong! If more capacity is needed surely conversion of a first class coach would be better before expensive extra coaches and platform lengthening!

 

[Class83]

Quite a few of the WCML platforms were extended to cope with 11 car, main issues would be the termini at Euston, Picc, Lime St and Central. I think Euston and probably Picc have the length, Lime St and Central are tighter.

 

[455driver]

They wouldnt fit in a lot of stations for a start.

I have probably forgot more about actually railway operations than that 'expert' will ever know. Although he does know a lot about the financing and other stuff, the actual operational side of things he knows very little about.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Was this in Rail Magazine?

Dont think there will be any movement towards this or Mini Pendos until the new franchise is sorted

 

[Bevan Price]

Quite a few of the WCML platforms were extended to cope with 11 car, main issues would be the termini at Euston, Picc, Lime St and Central. I think Euston and probably Picc have the length, Lime St and Central are tighter.

Crewe, Preston (Platforms 3 & 4 only), Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle should be able to cope with 12 coach 390s.

Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western & Lancaster are probably too short.
Liverpool LIme Street might manage 11½ coach lengths, with the end of a 12th coach hanging off the end of Platform 7 - not certain if it would foul any points at the tunnel end of the platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

They wouldnt fit in a lot of stations for a start.

I have probably forgot more about actually railway operations than that 'expert' will ever know. Although he does know a lot about the financing and other stuff, the actual operational side of things he knows very little about.

Wolmar probably thinks they still use slip coaches... :roll:

 

[notadriver]

Performance wise the 11 cars are slightly worse off than the 9 car Pendolinos but according to traction magazine they normally only use 80% of power anyway.

 

[cj_1985]

If this was ever actually likely to happen... and remembering the source, I'm not convinced its anything but a pipe dream... but could they not use SDO (or something similar) on 12 carriage pendos at stations that lack a long enough platform?
Assuming that it wouldn't be the whole of the 390 fleet getting lengthened, could the longer units not be diagrammed for use on routes where there would be little or no issue...?

 

[Eagle]

Coventry is fine; it can accommodate 15-coach trains.

 

[455driver]

If this was ever actually likely to happen... and remembering the source, I'm not convinced its anything but a pipe dream... but could they not use SDO (or something similar) on 12 carriage pendos at stations that lack a long enough platform?
Assuming that it wouldn't be the whole of the 390 fleet getting lengthened, could the longer units not be diagrammed for use on routes where there would be little or no issue...?

The problem is the terminus stations where the back of the train would foul the points/be over the track circuit, be wrong side of signal, the actual passenger side of things wouldnt be an issue.

 

[cj_1985]

The problem is the terminus stations where the back of the train would foul the points/be over the track circuit, be wrong side of signal, the actual passenger side of things wouldnt be an issue.

Many thanks , I always forget about the stuff that's you rarely see

 

[WatcherZero]

Wigan NW platforms were already quite long so didnt have to be lengthened in anticipation of pendo-lengthening though theyve since had their ends rebuilt as they were falling apart. Would only need a 15m extension for 12car on platform 4, platform 5 however is currently 10m short of a 11car so would need a full 24m extension if not more however theres a crossover at the end of the platform which would have to be moved and probably why they didnt lengthen it for 11car.

 

[SeanG]

Ridiculous idea.
If 12 coaches were needed, then there wouldn't have been improvements to take it to just 11

 

[The Ham]

I'm told that Chritian Wolmar has suggested that 12 car Pendolinos could be practical.

Opinions?

Would they fit in key platforms? [The 11cars seem to be pretty snug already in places!]

And what would be the impact on performance?

Of course everything is practical, it's just a factor of how much money you are willing to put in to make it so.

if certain key stations are viable to have 12 coach trains, would it not be better to replace the 2x5 Voyagers with 2x6 Mini Pedolinos and lengthen as many of the remaining 9 coach sets to 11 coach sets as possible (if new Pendolino coaches which fitted the current stock where no longer viable it could be possible to store 3 sets of end coaches and use the intermediate coaches to lengthen the rest of the fleet and then buy 3x11 sets which were the same as the 6 coach sets).

The other way to get the existing 9 coach fleet up to 11 coaches would be to buy more new 11 coach sets (say 14 new 11 coach sets) and shorten 14 of the existing sets to 8 coaches (slightly more seats than a pair of 4 coach Voyagers but slightly less than a pair of 5 coach Voyagers) and move them over to XC for use on their electrified lines (assumming we are talking CP6 or later that this happens) and use the removed coaches to lengthen the remaining sets to 11 coaches.

 

[edwin_m]

if certain key stations are viable to have 12 coach trains, would it not be better to replace the 2x5 Voyagers with 2x6 Mini Pedolinos

With the space lost to cabs and non-passenger areas, 2x6 would probably have less passenger space than 1x11.

 

[notadriver]

How much of the first and last coach is for passenger accommodation ?

 

[ainsworth74]

How much of the first and last coach is for passenger accommodation ?

At the standard class end about 2/3s whilst the first class end around half probably a little less. This difference is due to the kitchen being in the first class vehicle.

 

[Bob Ames]

Coach K has only 18 seats; don't forget the shop in coach C also takes up some room.

 

[dk1]

Coach K has only 18 seats; don't forget the shop in coach C also takes up some room.

Coach K is staff accomodation

 

[Crossover]

Would lengthen to 12 cars also cause electrical issues? I recall mumblings of the move to 11 causing 'fun' with some of the onboard systems

 

[The Ham]

With the space lost to cabs and non-passenger areas, 2x6 would probably have less passenger space than 1x11.

True, but then they will still have a lot more passenger space than 2x5 coach Voyagers, which was what I was suggesting they replace.

 

[3141]

There's another reason why 12-car Pendolinos are problematic. The original carriages are now around ten years old. If it was another two years before the twelfth carriages started to be delivered, there would be a big age discrepancy between the originals and the new arrivals. By 2044 the originals would be 40 years old and pretty well at the end of their lives; but coach no. 12 would be 11 or 12 years younger. Do you then scrap carriages which are under 30 years old? It's unlikely they could be reformed with any other units. In the meantime the owning ROSCO will charge a higher rental in order to recover the capital cost over a shorter number of years.

Someone can work out how many new carriages would be needed in order to reform all the existing Pendolinos into 12 car units and still have the same number of units in total as now. It would make turning class 460 into 458/5 look a simple job in comparison.

If we have HS2 which we shouldn't need longer Pendolinos.

 

[Bevan Price]

An easier way to increase Pendolino capacity would be to convert 2 coaches from First to Standard Class.

 

[edwin_m]

There's another reason why 12-car Pendolinos are problematic. The original carriages are now around ten years old. If it was another two years before the twelfth carriages started to be delivered, there would be a big age discrepancy between the originals and the new arrivals. By 2044 the originals would be 40 years old and pretty well at the end of their lives; but coach no. 12 would be 11 or 12 years younger. Do you then scrap carriages which are under 30 years old?

Someone will now suggest that we turn all the spare Pendolino sets into loco-hauled trains using all those spare 47s.

 

[Goatboy]

Would this be to give Virgin the capacity required to offer £3 Advance Fares for 1+ hour long journeys?

 

[Bob Ames]

An easier way to increase Pendolino capacity would be to convert 2 coaches from First to Standard Class.

Indeed, but I can't see Branny ever going for it. No doubt FirstGrope would have already done this, had their ICWC bid succeeded...

 

[HSTEd]

Indeed, but I can't see Branny ever going for it. No doubt FirstGrope would have already done this, had their ICWC bid succeeded...

2 Coaches is ridiculously excessive.

That would leave an 11 car Pendolino with only 55 first class seats in total.

That is only 13 more than a five-car Class 180.
The ratio is probably about where it needs to be now on the 11-car sets.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wasnt First proposal to take one coach out of first class and introduce a club class (bigger seats than standard but ticket only includes a packed lunch rather than a cooked meal)?

 

[ainsworth74]

Wasnt First proposal to take one coach out of first class and introduce a club class (bigger seats than standard but ticket only includes a packed lunch rather than a cooked meal)?

They were going to do something but the what was never specified as far as I'm aware. The assumption made on here was as you say something like club class so bigger seat, wi-fi, free drinks and only snacks to eat.