10pm Cut Off Time??

[windcheetah]

Hi, I'm in dispute with northernrailway.co.uk about a journey I had purchased a ticket for about a week in advance.

The journey details are
Date Thursday the 6th of October
Leave Manchester Piccadilly 1847
Arrive Macclesfield 1917

I was unable to make this trip as the train was cancelled.

The reason they rejected my claim was as follows: "We are sorry we have rejected your claim as the intended service was not timetabled to operate in advance of travel. Due to the impact's of COVID and the staffing challenges caused as result of the impact to our driver training program Northern like many other Train operators are operating amended timetables, Delay repay compensation is based on the advertised timetable at 10pm before the day of travel."

I had never heard about the 10pm day before check, can someone point me to the place where is says this??

What should I have claimed for?? I've never seen an option for a cancelled train, just a very long delay 2 hours or more, I think.

Thanks loads
Martin

 

[Class800]

Refund for abandoned journey would be the correct claim rather than delay repay.

 

[skyhigh]

I had never heard about the 10pm day before check, can someone point me to the place where is says this??

It's from the latest National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Compensation is based on the delay in your arrival time at the destination station, as compared to the arrival time stated in the Published Timetable of the Day.

“Published Timetable of the Day” means the schedule of services, including rail replacement services, applicable on the day you travel or plan to travel (different to May or December timetable). These changes will be published no later than 22:00 the day before travel and available at www.nationalrail.co.uk

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

The legality of those terms is very much up for debate though.

 

[island]

Earlier this year the train companies purported to change the National Rail Conditions of Travel to make DelayRepay claimable based on the Published Timetable Of The Day, that is to say the timetable as found on National Rail Enquiries at 10pm on the day before travel. You can read this in section 33.1 of the NRCoT.

The validity and morals of the change are debated, but we need not consider that here, because you did not incur a delay that's claimable as DelayRepay; rather, you chose not to travel. You should claim a refund (not compensation) from the original point of purchase of the ticket.

 

[windcheetah]

Refund for abandoned journey would be the correct claim rather than delay repay.

OK thanks for that, would you suggest I start again?? I've had no joy in trying to modify a claim.
Martin

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

It's from the latest National Rail Conditions of Travel:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

The legality of those terms is very much up for debate though.

Thanks for that, so as they say that my train was not listed in the Published Timetable Of The Day, where does that leave me??
I had a ticket for a non-existent train journey.
Would I be entitled to any refund at all??

 

[AlterEgo]

Would I be entitled to any refund at all??

Yes, undoubtedly, from the original point of sale.

 

[XAM2175]

Thanks for that, so as they say that my train was not listed in the Published Timetable Of The Day, where does that leave me??
I had a ticket for a non-existent train journey.
Would I be entitled to any refund at all??

If you abandoned your journey due to the cancellation, you're entitled to claim a full refund from the organisation that sold you the ticket.

If you continued your journey and arrived late due to the cancellation, under the new rules you're not entitled to Delay Repay.

 

[windcheetah]

Yes, undoubtedly, from the original point of sale.

OK, I don't seem to be able to manually enter the train times very easily, I have to add an extra leg to the journey and then take it out!!!

 

[Haywain]

OK, I don't seem to be able to manually enter the train times very easily, I have to add an extra leg to the journey and then take it out!!!

You don't normally need to enter train details to request a refund.

 

[windcheetah]

If you abandoned your journey due to the cancellation, you're entitled to claim a full refund from the organisation that sold you the ticket.

If you continued your journey and arrived late due to the cancellation, under the new rules you're not entitled to Delay Repay.

Oh, I didn't realise that, that seems rather unfair as I was late, but at least got home!!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==

You don't normally need to enter train details to request a refund.

Is Northern that different to get a refund?? I didn't buy my ticket from them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Just to clarify: if you didn't travel, don't claim your refund through Northern's delay repay form - you need to email them the retailer you bought the ticket from directly. (I have found that they generally respond reasonably quickly).

 

[skyhigh]

Oh, I didn't realise that, that seems rather unfair as I was late, but at least got home!!!

Just to be totally clear here, did you travel at all using the ticket? Or did you travel home another way, or purchase a new ticket?

 

[windcheetah]

Oh, I didn't realise that, that seems rather unfair as I was late, but at least got home!!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==


Is Northern that different to get a refund?? I didn't buy my ticket from them.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Your replies seem a bit conflicting

You are now saying you were late but at least got home,

So to clarify what exact journey did you under take? and what tickets did you use for that journey? and were any other tickets held or purchased?

 

[Watershed]

And did you use a train to get home, or some other means?

 

[AlterEgo]

OP: Did you, or did you not travel?

You say you were unable to make the journey but now say you got home, but were late.

What happened? Did you use a later train to make the journey, or did you just give up and use some other means?

 

[island]

Oh, I didn't realise that, that seems rather unfair as I was late, but at least got home!!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2022 ==


Is Northern that different to get a refund?? I didn't buy my ticket from them.

If you did not travel and are therefore claiming a refund, you claim it off the original point of sale, which isn’t Northern.

If you did travel, then your claim for DelayRepay has been rejected for the reasons already explained.

 

[windcheetah]

Just to be totally clear here, did you travel at all using the ticket? Or did you travel home another way, or purchase a new ticket?

I made it home using the ticket that I had purchased beforehand, but arrived about 40 minutes late.

 

[XAM2175]

I made it home using the ticket that I had purchased beforehand, but arrived about 40 minutes late.

In which case you can't obtain a refund - because you used the ticket - and the 10pm rule allows Northern to decline a Delay Repay claim.

 

[windcheetah]

Your replies seem a bit conflicting

You are now saying you were late but at least got home,

So to clarify what exact journey did you under take? and what tickets did you use for that journey? and were any other tickets held or purchased?

Yes, I got on the next train from Manchester to Macclesfield, the 1905 Cross Country and I assumed that my ticket was valid, so no further tickets were purchased.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==

And did you use a train to get home, or some other means?

Yes, I got on the next train to Macc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==

OP: Did you, or did you not travel?

You say you were unable to make the journey but now say you got home, but were late.

What happened? Did you use a later train to make the journey, or did you just give up and use some other means?

When I said that I was unable to travel, I perhaps should have qualified by adding "with my pre-booked train ticket."

This is how I see it, can someone please point out where I have the wrong end of the stick.

If the train is NOT shown in the "Published Timetable Of The Day", it has not been cancelled, but never existed. This means that it can't be late.

If I have a ticket for that specific train, what other trains am I allowed to travel on? If I do travel on another train, am I allowed to travel on an earlier train?

Is there a official historical "Published Timetable Of The Day" to look at to find if you are able to claim anything?

Thanks again
Martin

 

[py_megapixel]

Is there a official historical "Published Timetable Of The Day" to look at to find if you are able to claim anything?

The phrase "Published Timetable of the Day" does imply that it's a timetable which is published on a daily basis. In fact it's none of those things. It doesn't really exist at all, and that's what's so problematic about it.

The general consensus appears to be that the term as used in NRCoT is actually cryptic way of referring to the trains that were shown in National Rail Enquiries (NRE) at 22:00 before the day of travel. But NRE updates in real-time - that's the whole point of it - and the railway doesn't keep (or at least refuses to give the public access to) records of what it said in the past. So unless you check your journey at precisely that time and save some sort of proof that the train was listed as running, the company is basically free to claim it wasn't in the timetable and there's nothing you can do about it.

(Yes, this is insane!)

 

[AlterEgo]

When I said that I was unable to travel, I perhaps should have qualified by adding "with my pre-booked train."

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==

This is how I see it, can someone please point out where I have the wrong end of the stick.

Ok, so if you did actually travel, but were late, then ordinarily Delay Repay is due. However, as this is now based on the timetable published at 10pm the night before departure, they can pre-emptively cancel trains at this time (or before, or course) and avoid liability, at least under the Conditons of Carriage. Sadly, this means that, strictly speaking, no delay repay is due in your case, although other civil legal avenues are open to you if you wish.

The situation is very bad indeed, and while some reform of the Conditions and TOCs' liabilities for Delay Repay were due, this was effectively the nuclear option and is very passenger-unfriendly.

 

[windcheetah]

Thanks for the info everyone, I think I'll take that as a loss.
It is not to do with the money, a whole £2.90, but trying to find out what the rules are/were!!!!
Martin
PS Do I need to mark this as 'closed/complete'?

 

[Starmill]

PS Do I need to mark this as 'closed/complete'?

No there's no need, you can simply give a summary reply as you have done already.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the info everyone, I think I'll take that as a loss.
It is not to do with the money, a whole £2.90, but trying to find out what the rules are/were!!!!
Martin
PS Do I need to mark this as 'closed/complete'?

The new NRCoT purport to exclude the right to Delay Repay in these circumstances, under the "Published Timetable of the Day" concept.

As you say, this is highly iniquitous, particularly since you can't just randomly choose to take another train with an Advance. And more to the point, it is quite possibly an unfair term in the context of a consumer contract, and thus unenforceable.

It's also worth noting that you have the right to a minimum level of delay compensation under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), for delays of 60+ minutes. The PRO disallows any attempt by conditions of carriage to limit or exclude PRO rights. However, train operators are entitled to set a minimum threshold of €4 for claims, which would disqualify any claim you may have.

 

[Starmill]

The new NRCoT purport to exclude the right to Delay Repay in these circumstances, under the "Published Timetable of the Day" concept.

As you say, this is highly iniquitous, particularly since you can't just randomly choose to take another train with an Advance. And more to the point, it is quite possibly an unfair term in the context of a consumer contract, and thus unenforceable.

It's also worth noting that you have the right to a minimum level of delay compensation under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), for delays of 60+ minutes. The PRO disallows any attempt by conditions of carriage to limit or exclude PRO rights. However, train operators are entitled to set a minimum threshold of €4 for claims, which would disqualify any claim you may have.

It may also have been possible to make a claim for a partial refund under the "reasonable care and skill" provision, which the NRCoT clarifies is a possibility instead of, but not in addition to, claiming under 'Delay Repay'.

It would be persuasive that changing the train times by an order of approximately 40 minutes at the very last moment, but not informing you, wouldn't be a service performed with reasonable care and skill. Usually a repeat performance is the first remedy though so a free ticket (or similar) might have been offered in place of a partial refund.

I think that the lesson is that sometimes the chances of being able to actually claim redress in practical terms are slightly higher by the published routes that aren't 'Delay Repay', even if it might be preferred in some quarters if only 'Delay Repay' were ever used.

 

[WesternLancer]

I advise the OP - having now understood the daftness of all this - to get their MP on to it - Northern is run by the govt so clearly answerable to the Dept for Transport - get your local MP to get the Minister to reply this in a sane way (and then post the minister's reply here for us to see if possible!). The civil servants can draft a reply for the minster to send to your MP and see that tortuous rubbish they come up with.

 

[Starmill]

I advise you the OP - having now understood the daftness of all this - to get their MP on to it - Northern is run by the govt so clearly answerable to the Dept for Transport - get your local MP to get the Minister to reply this in a sane way (and then post the minister's reply here for us to see if possible!). The civil servants can draft a reply for the minster to send to your MP and see that tortuous rubbish they come up with.

It's always a sensible suggestion to email your MP's office to ask for them to write a letter to a Minister.

 

[PG]

It's always a sensible suggestion to email your MP's office to ask for them to write a letter to a Minister.

Given the craziness of recent times in the government what happens if, by the time they receive your letter, your MP has become the Minister of Transport? Not like they can objectively put a constituents case to their Ministerial self

 

[WesternLancer]

Given the craziness of recent times in the government what happens if, by the time they receive your letter, your MP has become the Minister of Transport? Not like they can objectively put a constituents case to their Ministerial self

In this instance it's not an individual's case that needs raising (they would just bat that off to to the train operating company) - it's the whole policy around the PTofTD and the DfT's (thus the minister's) adoption of it as an acceptable way of doing things esp ref compensation for tickets bought prior to 10pm the day before. That's what needs raising. And if your MP is the minster themselves let them explain how and why it is justifiable...(or at least sign the letter drafted by their civil servant)