1038 INV-WIC hits car on crossing, 3 dead

[scotsman]

As the rules go - the right of way that was there first has to build/maintain the crossing. So, if the crossing was there first - then it's Highland Council's responisbility. However, Network Rail's reponsibility to make sure it's safe and operational.

go figure.

 

[blue sabre]

As the rules go - the right of way that was there first has to build/maintain the crossing. So, if the crossing was there first - then it's Highland Council's responisbility. However, Network Rail's reponsibility to make sure it's safe and operational.

go figure.

Erm? If it was there before what?

 

[boing_uk]

As the rules go - the right of way that was there first has to build/maintain the crossing. So, if the crossing was there first - then it's Highland Council's responisbility. However, Network Rail's reponsibility to make sure it's safe and operational.

Eh?

As it goes, Network Rail are responsible for the area within their boundary, to the crossing gates or an imaginary line adjacent the tracks formed by any fencing. All approach signage, surfacing, road markings etc are the responsibility of the highway authority. The highway authority does not have any control or responsibility for any part of the crossing within railway land or any of the equipment thereon.

The highway authority is also subservient to Network Rail if we carry out or permit roadworks in the vacinity of level crossings, usually required to pay to have someone on site to locally monitor the crossing if traffic is going to be seriously disrupted - this was reinforced I beleive out of a serious incident at Wainfleet IIRC, caused by queueing traffic from temporary signals about a mile away.

The highway authority MUST also comply with a level crossing order and the road markings submitted thereon.

Of course, stories like this get lost in the mists of time and the "it'll be alright Jack" attitude shown by many nowadays will no doubt cause history to be repeated.

 

[Nym]

Just to add to above...

Theres four big red flashing lights, any two of witch will be on at any time, 110yd advance warnings, what more do you need? Flashing red lights mean stop, if you can't see red lights you were warned about on another sign 110yd previously, you shouldn't be driving!

(As you may be able to tell, I have no patience for pepole who don't know how to drive, and if anyone says that there aren't refresher causes or anything available to make sure your driving is still up to scratch, I refer you both to any good driving school and the Institute of Advanced Motorists)

Also, somthing I've picked up on in the report that I don't think is right; yes, young drivers cause accidents though inexperience, but we also have had to pass the hardest driving tests ever, and the're getting harder. Young drivers tend to make mistakes because of arrogance, where as old drivers make mistakes because they plan just don't know what the're doing, such as every single bloddy time I'm on the M56 and some idiot insists on sitting at 50mph in lane 2/3 because they saw a 50 sign on the A5103, but this is more, old drivers, and young female dirivers that are paying more attention to their makeup or mobile than the road ahead of them.

 

[jon0844]

It is certainly true that young drivers now have tests that are SIGNIFICANTLY tougher than before. I did a 25 minute test in 1991, with no hazard perception or theory tests. Luckily, I have an interest in driving and my mum was secretary of the local IAM group, so I think I've managed to remain alert.

And those people who have taken some form of advanced course are not the ones that think you are safe by driving slow everywhere. The IAM always say that you drive at the speed limit unless there's a good reason not to (i.e. safety). It isn't a given that doing 20 in a 40 makes you safe, or that people doing 40 in a 40 are forgetting that a speed limit 'is a limit not a target'.

The people who say that are probably the most dangerous drivers out there, if they believe speed is the key factor in most accidents. I bet the driver of this car was keeping well within the limit, and look how that turned out.

 

[Greenback]

The driving test has always been too short and too easy. It was designed to show you could control a car, but that was in days that were very diifferent to the traffic conditions we see now!

Older people can be more of a danger than younger drivers. Faculties are diminished, reaction times slow, and eyesight begins to get weaker. These are a natural result of the ageing process, but how many people are too proud to admit it happens to them as they get older?

There should be annual retesting for all drivers in their first two years of driving, and for thoseover the age of 70, and no one should be allowed to drive once they are over 85!

 

[90019]

Also, somthing I've picked up on in the report that I don't think is right; yes, young drivers cause accidents though inexperience, but we also have had to pass the hardest driving tests ever, and the're getting harder. Young drivers tend to make mistakes because of arrogance, where as old drivers make mistakes because they plan just don't know what the're doing

This is something that really irritates me about a lot of older people there seems to be this opinion that experience is a suitable substitute for ability.

My mum is particularly bad, and I've had many arguments with her because of it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The IAM always say that you drive at the speed limit unless there's a good reason not to (i.e. safety). It isn't a given that doing 20 in a 40 makes you safe, or that people doing 40 in a 40 are forgetting that a speed limit 'is a limit not a target'.

One thing I wonder about the opinions of people on is who is more of a danger to others on the motorway, someone doing 45mph or 85mph?

 

[jon0844]

Go to Germany and drive on an autobahn. You'll meet people doing 150mph or more (I got my car to 139mph) and their safety record speaks for itself.

But, the people doing 45mph know how to keep to their lane, and know to look out for people doing 200mph. It's amazing to see how such variances in speed can still be safe, but I guess they're far more disciplined.

 

[anthony263]

The driving test has always been too short and too easy. It was designed to show you could control a car, but that was in days that were very diifferent to the traffic conditions we see now!

Older people can be more of a danger than younger drivers. Faculties are diminished, reaction times slow, and eyesight begins to get weaker. These are a natural result of the ageing process, but how many people are too proud to admit it happens to them as they get older?

There should be annual retesting for all drivers in their first two years of driving, and for thoseover the age of 70, and no one should be allowed to drive once they are over 85!

I have to have additional training now that i have my PCV licence which is 35 hours every 5 years, maybe the uk government should consider adopting something similar for all car drivers (especially white van man)

 

[90019]

Go to Germany and drive on an autobahn.

I want to.
Hopefully sometime when I have a car with a little more torque.
Someone buy me a Polo 9N TDI or GT!

But, the people doing 45mph know how to keep to their lane, and know to look out for people doing 200mph. It's amazing to see how such variances in speed can still be safe, but I guess they're far more disciplined.

They're also more aware of how to use a motorway properly, unlike a slightly worrying amount of people in this country.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed. Many autobahns are just two lanes, yet the lanes are each used well. Over here, you can add more lanes and everyone just moves over to the right.

The amount of times I've thought it would be possible to do 70mph in lane 1 and pass everything on the road (at times when there are few lorries) is unreal. We're spending so much money on adding lanes, when the road space is being so poorly used.

From the middle lane hoggers to the stereotypical rep (or near Heathrow, Addison Lee or some other minicab) stuck in lane 3/4, we have loads of empty space easily capable of absorbing more traffic with a little more consideration for others.

 

[90019]

Indeed. Many autobahns are just two lanes, yet the lanes are each used well. Over here, you can add more lanes and everyone just moves over to the right.

The amount of times I've thought it would be possible to do 70mph in lane 1 and pass everything on the road (at times when there are few lorries) is unreal. We're spending so much money on adding lanes, when the road space is being so poorly used.

From the middle lane hoggers to the stereotypical rep (or near Heathrow, Addison Lee or some other minicab) stuck in lane 3/4, we have loads of empty space easily capable of absorbing more traffic with a little more consideration for others.

Yeah, it's one of the things I really hate about using the A720 or the A1 out of Edinburgh when it's busy, because I know that the chances are I'm going to get stuck behind someone doing 60 in the lane 2, refusing to move because there's someone slower in lane 1.

I mean, if someone is coming up behind me going faster than I am when I'm passing others, when I can, I'll move back across to let them past. Whether they're speeding or not is up to them, I'll still move out of the way.

 

[jon0844]

That's because you only use lane 2, 3, 4 etc to OVERTAKE, yet some people do believe in lanes being by speed, so if they're doing 60 then they can happily stay where they are.

Anyone remember being told that if you're going to take longer than 10 seconds to pass something, pull back in? That should be a good guide to tell you if you're okay to stay in lane two or go back in. What these lane hoggers don't seem to appreciate is that they CAN go back out later on to overtake again!

I do think some of them are so timid that they're terrified they'll be stuck in lane 1 forever. If they really are unable to pull out again, maybe they should give up driving.

 

[jopsuk]

Of course, in the UK, as long as you do so in a safe manner, there's nothing illeagal about undertaking. The only slight complication is that it could be held against you as a contributing factor if you cause a crash whilst doing so, but the act itself is not banned anywhere. Anyone who cares to challenge this assetion should only do so if they can find a ban in the Highway Code or an Act of Parliament.

Top hint: you won't.

however, I belive in Gemrnay it IS illeagal to undertake on the Autobahns?

 

[jon0844]

I have undertaken many times but given the fact that the people in the wrong lanes do things without thinking, they can easily come back in - if, for example, you're coming up to an exit ahead which they want.

I've never had an accident because I drive defensively and try and look for things like this, and you never just fly down lane 1 at top speed (as some people do, and then it's not a non-existent 'undertaking' offence but driving without due care).

I can't see why you'd need to undertake in Germany. People move back in very quickly, obviously having been taught that lane 2+ are for overtaking only. If you know that, the problem is half solved - bar the odd bad driver that ignores all the rules. We have too many of these here.

 

[Greenback]

I have to have additional training now that i have my PCV licence which is 35 hours every 5 years, maybe the uk government should consider adopting something similar for all car drivers (especially white van man)

As long as there's some form of assessment in that period as well, I'd be in favour!

 

[90019]

I have undertaken many times but given the fact that the people in the wrong lanes do things without thinking, they can easily come back in - if, for example, you're coming up to an exit ahead which they want.

I've never had an accident because I drive defensively and try and look for things like this, and you never just fly down lane 1 at top speed (as some people do, and then it's not a non-existent 'undertaking' offence but driving without due care).

I can't see why you'd need to undertake in Germany. People move back in very quickly, obviously having been taught that lane 2+ are for overtaking only. If you know that, the problem is half solved - bar the odd bad driver that ignores all the rules. We have too many of these here.

Personally, I don't think people should be allowed to drive on the motorway until they have passed a test to show that they are capable of using them properly.

Obviously you incorporate it into test, but make it optional - like being able to do your test in an automatic but not being allowed to drive a manual if you do.

Clearly, it wouldn't be implemented overnight, but would have a date set some point, say 2 or 3 years later, to give people time to arrange and have the test done. It wouldn't need to be too long or expensive, as it would just need to cover staying to the left unless overtaking, practising overtaking others and using sliproads properly. I propose installing ANPR cameras at the start of motorways and all onramps (though not offramps as they are not to be average speed cameras), which will flag up cars registered to those who are not licenced to be using them (Obviously there shall be leniancy for those who have taken a wrong turn onto it by accident, but repeat offenders will get a fixed penalty notice and points on their licence).


Actually, that reminds me of something else that really irritates me about motorways; Sliproads.
So many people don't seem to understand that they're there and so that you can get up to a safe speed to join the motorway, not dawdle down them at 30 or 40 then accelerate when you get onto the motorway itself. It's not only annoying but sometimes dangerous as well.
I mean, my car isn't powerful (54bhp ), so it doesn't accelerate that quickly, but slip roads are fine for getting up to speed, however, I've had more than one occasion when I've almost had a crash because the person in front wouldn't accelerate down the slip road.
Mind you, the ones who slow down before pulling on are even worse, they shouldn't be allowed near motorways if they do that

/rant

 

[Tomnick]

The worst ones (and I've never come across it on a motorway; I'd have some sympathy with someone with less confidence trying to join a very congested motorway) are the ones who can't find themselves a gap and stop instead at the end of the acceleration lane. Obviously it's then much harder to accelerate into a gap, and anyone else coming from the sliproad is also more than likely going to have to stop (if they're not too busy looking for a gap themselves to see the first car).

Equally bad, and acknowledging that traffic on the mainline does have priority still, are those that refuse to move to the adjacent lane to allow traffic to merge from a sliproad. Again, it's not always possible when it's busy, but I recently tried to join the M18 S/B at J2 (off the A1(M)). There was a constant stream of traffic coming up the sliproad in both lanes, and a single car already on an otherwise empty mainline - isn't it just common sense to move to L2 to give everyone a bit of room until they've all sorted themselves out?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I mean, my car isn't powerful (54bhp ), so it doesn't accelerate that quickly

Snap! Mine is 54hp as well... don't tell me we have the same type of car? Old shape Suzuki Swift 993cc automatic?

I agree with all those points, having seen a few dawdlers ( known as "Mimsers" on a motoring forum but I can't remember what that stands for! ); the worst case was a few years ago while trying to join the M25 anticlockwise from the southbound A217.

Found myself behind a car doing 30mph on the A217 ( which is 40mph at that point ); no opportunity to overtake as we were getting too close to the M25 itself. The slow car turned towards the M25 as well.

Now, the slip road is two lanes so no problem, myself plus a lot of the queue behind me that had backed up as a result of the slower car indicated and moved over into the right hand lane and quickly began to gain speed.

The next thing was that the slow car, still only doing 30mph, also indicated right and moved into the right hand lane, causing myself to brake very heavily and suddenly, ditto several of the other cars; we all quickly indicated left and moved back into the left hand lane, swiftly passing the idiot.

When I got down to the M25 itself ( it's quite a long joining slip ) I took a quick glance back in the mirror and the idiot was still only half way down the slip road, still only doing 30mph, with a huge number of cars passing him on the left and backed up behind him.

 

[90019]

Snap! Mine is 54hp as well... don't tell me we have the same type of car? Old shape Suzuki Swift 993cc automatic?

Nah, it's a Mk4 Polo 1.2 (pic)
My brother has it just now, but I might get it back when it hits 100000 miles (it's at about 94000 just now)

 

[GB]

Ive never really understood why some new drivers have such trouble with motorways. Dual carridge ways have alot more hazzards and can be alot more dangerous yet they do not have the same reputation with new drivers like motorways do.

 

[90019]

Ive never really understood why some new drivers have such trouble with motorways. Dual carridge ways have alot more hazzards and can be alot more dangerous yet they do not have the same reputation with new drivers like motorways do.

I think it may be because they have no training of actual motorways, which means they're more cautious of them and think that by going slower they're taking less risks.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I think it may be because they have no training of actual motorways, which means they're more cautious of them and think that by going slower they're taking less risks.

An interesting difference you might notice if you ever visit us in sunny Northern Ireland is the 'R' plate. For some reason this is unique in the UK to NI. For one year after getting their license, new drivers are restricted to 45mph and must carry an 'R' plate (normally printed in identical style on the reverse side of 'L' plates sold here).

I used to think that they weren't allowed on motorways, but in fact 'R' plate drivers are permitted on motorways in NI (all 70 miles of them ) but must still stick to 45mph! As you can imagine most 'R' plates have a habit of conveniently falling off for the duration of any journey on our longer motorways, and I'm all for that... makes it much safer for everyone else traveling at normal motorway speeds.

 

[90019]

An interesting difference you might notice if you ever visit us in sunny Northern Ireland is the 'R' plate. For some reason this is unique in the UK to NI. For one year after getting their license, new drivers are restricted to 45mph and must carry an 'R' plate (normally printed in identical style on the reverse side of 'L' plates sold here).

I used to think that they weren't allowed on motorways, but in fact 'R' plate drivers are permitted on motorways in NI (all 70 miles of them ) but must still stick to 45mph! As you can imagine most 'R' plates have a habit of conveniently falling off for the duration of any journey on our longer motorways, and I'm all for that... makes it much safer for everyone else traveling at normal motorway speeds.

We do have P plates for those who have recently passed their tests, but there's no mandtory use of them and cars with them on have no restrictions on speed or anything.

 

[TDK]

If there is a fail safe that means the train gets a red if the other signal doesn't work then I'm with you in thinking the motorist was at a fault!

actually it is a flashing red that then goes to a flashing white, however is there evidence available that the comments at this council meeting were correct?