09.47 Leeds To Carlisle

[sprinterguy]

Didn't a LHCS set run on there in Arriva Trains Northern days (i.e. post-NorthernSpirit, not the present mob)?

Yes, circa 2004, using top and tail class 37s which I recall still encountered their share of reliability issues, particularly towards the end of their period of operation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes, circa 2004, using top and tail class 37s which I recall still encountered their share of reliability issues, particularly towards the end of their period of operation.

Yep, it did a Harrogate-Leeds run in the morning, out to Carlisle and then back to Leeds for the teatime commuter run back to Harrogate. Arriva used the unit it displaced to run a Leeds-Carlisle at about 4pm, returning at about 7.30pm from Carlisle.

The first thing Northern did was get rid of the loco hauled stock and the later additional trains.

I don't have an issue with the train being a semi-fast, it is useful if you're wanting to actually get somewhere. With all respect, there's naff all at Ribblehead or Garsdale and speeding a train or two up can only be a good thing for regular users of the line. There's the 0847 for walkers, which has a Dogbox on the back to accommodate them.

 

[yorksrob]

With all respect, there's naff all at Ribblehead or Garsdale

With all respect, that's why people go there.

 

[Tetchytyke]

With all respect, that's why people go there.

And a very beautiful part of the world it is too. Doesn't mean it's worth stopping everything there.

The S&C needs more semi-fasts (though not at the expense of the stopper), not fewer.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

If Northern and Scotrail were to jointly provide a through service between Leeds and Glasgow by extending selected G&SW services over the S&C, would it rival the XC offering in terms of journey time? If a limited stop service was to be provided (perhaps every 2 hours), calling as-follows;

Leeds
Keighley
Skipton
Settle
Appleby
Carlisle
Annan
Dumfries
Kilmarnock
Barrhead
Glasgow Central

What sort of journey time would be achievable (and why has it never been attempted?)

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't have an issue with the train being a semi-fast, it is useful if you're wanting to actually get somewhere. With all respect, there's naff all at Ribblehead or Garsdale and speeding a train or two up can only be a good thing for regular users of the line. There's the 0847 for walkers, which has a Dogbox on the back to accommodate them.

Clearly you're not into fell walking? The 08.47 is fine if you live within an hour of Leeds. If not you're going to struggle to do anything in the fells until around 12ish in which case it may well be quicker to drive. In fact in my sisters case given that Jaynie set off from her home in Derbyshire at 07.00, by car Jaynie would have been in Cowgill by around 10.00, two hours quicker than taking the train. If we're up there next summer and my sister decides to join us unless the timetable changes it will be the car every time. That's far from ideal but for a day trip from Derbyshire there is no realistic alternative.

 

[Starmill]

You can make the 0849 from Leeds from as far away as Birmingham New Street (0557), Newcastle (0630) and Chester (0635). If you can get to Lancaster for the 0823 you can get that train from Long Preston - it is actually quicker to go that way from Birmingham.

If Northern and Scotrail were to jointly provide a through service between Leeds and Glasgow by extending selected G&SW services over the S&C, would it rival the XC offering in terms of journey time? If a limited stop service was to be provided (perhaps every 2 hours), calling as-follows;

Leeds
Keighley
Skipton
Settle
Appleby
Carlisle
Annan
Dumfries
Kilmarnock
Barrhead
Glasgow Central

What sort of journey time would be achievable (and why has it never been attempted?)

Even going non-stop from Dumfries to Kilmarnock would be unbelievably slow. It would always be quicker to change at Carlisle and thus entirely pointless.

It would also have exactly the same effect on the service at the stations between Dumfries and Kilmarnock that so many people are complaining about in this thread at stations between Settle and Appleby.

 

[roversfan2001]

Even going non-stop from Dumfries to Kilmarnock would be unbelievably slow. It would always be quicker to change at Carlisle and thus entirely pointless.

I think the point was that if people wanted direct services, would the journey time via the S&C and via Kilmarnock compete with the XC service via Newcastle and Edinburgh.

 

[Starmill]

It seems very unlikely. The 1008 arrives at 1412 taking 4h4m. The 0947 from Leeds arrives into Carlisle at 1217. The fastest time achievable under the current timetable from Carlisle to Glasgow via Dumfries is around 2h20. What could running non-stop hope to achieve? Reducing that time by 5 minutes? And there would very likely need to be several minutes to wait at Carlisle too. It is very difficult to see how the time could go below 4h4m.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You can make the 0849 from Leeds from as far away as Birmingham New Street (0557), Newcastle (0630) and Chester (0635). If you can get to Lancaster for the 0823 you can get that train from Long Preston - it is actually quicker to go that way from Birmingham

Well yes but certainly in my sisters case that would have involved getting up at stupid o'clock on a day off. In fact if my sister had caught the train into Derby to avoid paying the ludicrous car park fee Jaynie would need to get up for around 05.20. From her point if view it would be much better to have an extra hour in bed (bare minimum) and then drive up to Dentdale.

 

[bramling]

Well yes but certainly in my sisters case that would have involved getting up at stupid o'clock on a day off. In fact if my sister had caught the train into Derby to avoid paying the ludicrous car park fee Jaynie would need to get up for around 05.20. From her point if view it would be much better to have an extra hour in bed (bare minimum) and then drive up to Dentdale.

I would 't call 0520 stupid o'clock. At that time many railway staff will have already been on duty for some time, having potentially got up *much* earlier!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would 't call 0520 stupid o'clock. At that time many railway staff will have already been on duty for some time, having potentially got up *much* earlier!

I'd call it stupid o'clock on your day off.

 

[Bantamzen]

It seems very unlikely. The 1008 arrives at 1412 taking 4h4m. The 0947 from Leeds arrives into Carlisle at 1217. The fastest time achievable under the current timetable from Carlisle to Glasgow via Dumfries is around 2h20. What could running non-stop hope to achieve? Reducing that time by 5 minutes? And there would very likely need to be several minutes to wait at Carlisle too. It is very difficult to see how the time could go below 4h4m.

Running a Leeds-Glasgow service via Kilmarnock really wouldn't make sense given the overhead. However if a few paths per day at say 100mph could be found on the WCML directly, these could be used to provide a route that could get to Glasgow from Leeds at around the 4 hour mark (depending on the time spent at Carlisle). Now all we need to find is suitable spare or soon to be spare DMUs that can cope with both the inclines on the S&C & operate at 100mph on the WCML.....

 

[PHILIPE]

Running a Leeds-Glasgow service via Kilmarnock really wouldn't make sense given the overhead. However if a few paths per day at say 100mph could be found on the WCML directly, these could be used to provide a route that could get to Glasgow from Leeds at around the 4 hour mark (depending on the time spent at Carlisle). Now all we need to find is suitable spare or soon to be spare DMUs that can cope with both the inclines on the S&C & operate at 100mph on the WCML.....

In an earlier post you will see why a service, when there was one, was withdrawn from WCML by the SRA.

 

[Bantamzen]

In an earlier post you will see why a service, when there was one, was withdrawn from WCML by the SRA.

However 185s are well versed on the WCML, and probably far less likely to fail than the previous Arriva loco hauled runs & if 185s were leased by Northern in sufficient numbers to cover all S&C runs then there might be some small wriggle room to cover such future eventualities.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Virgin wanted the 158 out of the way of their shiny new trains, and the SRA just bent over for them. The 185s were much later, when Virgin decided they didn't want to have to go to Manchester via Bolton once they'd lost their XC franchise.

As for other arguments, some journeys will be faster or more convenient by car. That's just a fact of life. 0847 is good for most of the north, and the 1047 is there for the stragglers.

 

[Starmill]

If you want to both have a lie in and a long day out then going by train is pretty much always not reccomended. If you want to travel a long way to the middle of nowhere and get there early it's no shock that you would have to leave at 5am. There is nothing that could be done to please Jaynie in this case. Most people don't use the train to go hiking anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

Most people don't use the train to go hiking anyway.

That's not the impression I get on the 8:49 from Leeds !

 

[Starmill]

Most people on a train might be hiking, but that doesn't mean most people hiking use the train.

It's the same as our society generally. The data tells us most people never use the train for anything at all. That doesn't mean there aren't full trains.

 

[yorksrob]

The data tells us most people never use the train for anything at all. That doesn't mean there aren't full trains.

By that logic, you wouldn't run trains at all.

A more sensible logic would be to say that "hikers make up a large proportion of travellers on this line, therefore we will design the service to suit hikers (amongst others)".

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hikers don't make up a big proportion of users of the line though. Certain trains at certain times of year cater for them. But they're not the core market.

Appleby has 62,000 station entries a year. Ribblehead has 18,000, Garsdale 15,000 and Dent has just 8000.

There's a place for the stoppers. But that place isn't at the expense of a semi-fast.

 

[yorksrob]

Hikers don't make up a big proportion of users of the line though. Certain trains at certain times of year cater for them. But they're not the core market.

Appleby has 62,000 station entries a year. Ribblehead has 18,000, Garsdale 15,000 and Dent has just 8000.

There's a place for the stoppers. But that place isn't at the expense of a semi-fast.

That looks like a fairly decent proportion of entries at Ribblehead and Garsdale to me. Certainly too many to justify abandoning them throughout most of Sunday, just to run a "fast" train that isn't that much faster anyway.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If you want to both have a lie in and a long day out then going by train is pretty much always not reccomended. If you want to travel a long way to the middle of nowhere and get there early it's no shock that you would have to leave at 5am. There is nothing that could be done to please Jaynie in this case. Most people don't use the train to go hiking anyway.

Of course there is, you make the 09.47 a stopper and the following service a semi fast. That way people traveling more than an hour from Leeds can set out a sensible time and still enjoy a decent amount of time in the fells. There are plenty of people like my sister who would use the train more often if it was more convenient and that includes other fell walkers. The railway needs to adapt and change and not the passenger.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hikers don't make up a big proportion of users of the line though. Certain trains at certain times of year cater for them. But they're not the core market.

Appleby has 62,000 station entries a year. Ribblehead has 18,000, Garsdale 15,000 and Dent has just 8000.

There's a place for the stoppers. But that place isn't at the expense of a semi-fast.

Fell walkers may not be the "core market" but in my opinion they are the group that are most likely to drive passenger growth on the S & C. Not only that but they are much more likely to spend money in pubs and cafe's then people who are just out for a ride on the S & C and so do a lot more to help the local economy.

Given the population of Ribblehead compared to Appleby I'd say that 18,000 is a pretty healthy figure. And given that Dent isn't the closest station to the three major fells (and given the awful bus service between the village and the station) 8,000 isn't too shabby. And now that the line is fully reopened hopefully that figure will start to rise back to where it was two or three years a go.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Most people on a train might be hiking, but that doesn't mean most people hiking use the train.

Well they would if the service was improved.

 

[Starmill]

Should the service for occasional hikers, to stations where there is a very small surrounding population like Dent and Ribblehead be a high priority for improvements? Or should rolling stock and track capacity be prioritsed for allocation to fast-interurban services between some of our largest cities and commuter routes that are very overcrowded?

A service from Leeds at 0847 and 1047 seems good enough to me to be honest. How long do you want to spend in the dales? A pair of extra services per day are planned on this route I think, but fundamentally a very small number of hikers will not be a higher priority than the Skipton to Leeds section of route (for example).

 

[Starmill]

Well they would if the service was improved.

Really? You mean people use their cars instead of trains not becuase they have already got them, they have high fixed costs, becuase it's government policy for trains to be expensive so that the majority of the population (car users) don't have to pay for them and because railways have suffered years of under-investment and are often unable to match car journey times?

The only reason walkers don't use the train is because that train doesn't stop?

I suppose on balance there probably is a case for one additional call on that train, as an extra 2 minutes would probably be workable. I would say it should probable be at Horton-in-Ribblesdale.

 

[Starmill]

By that logic, you wouldn't run trains at all.

If this happened, the country genuinely wouldn't be that different (on balance). Rail continues to have a very slim market share - and it is government policy not to expand this by intentionally making trains more expensive than driving in so many cases.

I agree this is all very wrong but it's still what we've got as a country.

A more sensible logic would be to say that "hikers make up a large proportion of travellers on this line, therefore we will design the service to suit hikers (amongst others)".

Are they the highest priority though? And what's more, are services at 0847 and 1047 really insufficient to their needs? As I say a good compromise may be that one more stop would be useful, provided this doesn't jearpordise any connections at Carlisle.

 

[yorksrob]

If this happened, the country genuinely wouldn't be that different (on balance). Rail continues to have a very slim market share - and it is government policy not to expand this by intentionally making trains more expensive than driving in so many cases.

I agree this is all very wrong but it's still what we've got as a country.

Well, yes and no. If you count all journeys, including Doris driving to the shops, and little Johnny being driven to school around the corner, then yes, rail does have a slim market share. Nevertheless, on certain key flows, such as some of the inter-urban routes, not to mention urban commuting, rail does have a healthy share of the market, and the country would suffer in terms of congestion and pollution if it were not there.

Are they the highest priority though? And what's more, are services at 0847 and 1047 really insufficient to their needs? As I say a good compromise may be that one more stop would be useful, provided this doesn't jearpordise any connections at Carlisle.

They might not be the highest priority - but then again, through passengers are going to be served, whichever intermediate stations the train calls at. And don't forget, the routes other important market - local journeys from stations North of Appleby into Carlisle, is also served by stopping trains.

 

[Condor7]

The surprising thing to me is after the colossal investment on the S&C recently following the land slip, (and the investment years ago to save the line) that they did not go that bit further and invest in upgrading certain sections for faster running.

You only have to look on a map from West Yorkshire to Glasgow to see that via the S&C is the most direct route, but as many have pointed out it is the slow journey time that makes the longer route via York and Edinburgh at least as quick if not quicker.