09.47 Leeds To Carlisle

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

A few days in Dentdale last week reminded me of several things:

How beautiful the dale is

How changeable the weather is

How well the fells reward hard work

And how useless in my opinion the 09.47 from Leeds is

Why it was decided that the 09.47 should miss the stops at Horton, Ribblehead, Dent and Garsdale is beyond me. If you're traveling from afar for a day in the Dales (as many do) and your not in Leeds until after the 08.49 has departed you won't be in and around the 'mountain section' until lunch time. Whilst this just about gives you enough time to climb one of the three peaks you have less time to spend in the area and as a result the local economy benefits to a much lesser degree.

Whilst I accept that the limited stop service saves around 15 minutes I'd be interested to know how many people use the S & C as a through route between Yorkshire and Scotland. There are some cracking walks from Horton, Ribblehead and Dent but in my opinion the current timetable doesn't allow day trippers to make the most of their day.

Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[91103eastcoast]

I have to agree with you there, it seems weird skipping intermediate stations and when I went on it last it was rather empty, I think there is a working from Carlisle later in the afternoon with the same stopping pattern.

I think the reason for the limited stop pattern is because this train used to continue up the West Coast Main Line towards Glasgow and was originally the only 158 operated train on the line, the other S&C services being 156.

It seems like a hangover from an earlier time that hasn't been updated to reflect the service being cut back to Carlisle.

 

[Iskra]

Last time I used this train (heading to Glasgow), it was 3/4 full with the conductor commenting 'everybody's going to Glasgow today' upon seeing my ticket.

Perhaps booking engines direct Glasgow passengers that would otherwise go via the ECML towards this train due to the time saving?

Your journey was during the school holidays, so not exactly typical I'm afraid and what day did you travel? Glasgow is less of a holiday destination and more somewhere you would go because of work (I appreciate this is a generalisation and I'm sure Glasgow is a lovely holiday destination).

Isn't this service the legacy of the SRA in that it used to run all the way to Glasgow, but then was cut back to Carlisle only to avoid abstracting revenue? It made sense to be limited stop when it was a Leeds-Glasgow service.

I appreciate it may not be entirely convenient for the locals/tourists, but as someone whose local station used to be Garsdale it never bothered me. Overall, now that I live further South I quite like the faster service it provides over a much more interesting route and I assume that Northern continue to run this service fast for a reason.

 

[bradford758]

This is an 'extra' to the two-hourly stopping service and I think was introduced as a relief service, I think it is a good idea to have 1 limited stop trip to encourage travel on the line.
In another timetable was loco-hauled and had to get back to provide a peak-hour trip to Harrogate.

Sent from my 4009X

 

[Condor7]

This is an 'extra' to the two-hourly stopping service and I think was introduced as a relief service, I think it is a good idea to have 1 limited stop trip to encourage travel on the line.
In another timetable was loco-hauled and had to get back to provide a peak-hour trip to Harrogate.

Sent from my 4009X

I have to agree with you. Until recently my wife had to travel from Appleby to Leeds and back on a regular basis, and she would always try for the 'express'
As much as she loved the beautiful countryside, after a while you just want to get there and back as quickly as possible.

 

[Harpers Tate]

As someone who travels this route occasionally for the journey, and not for any specific destination, I, too, always make a bee-line for the 0947 precisely because it is "fast".

 

[Adam0984]

I worked the 0947 2 Saturdays ago and had a 4 car 158 formation which by the time we left settle was about 1/2 full. It is a very popular service especially when offers such as the winter dales railcard/WY metro card offer is on and when the northern rover tickets are available using the tokens out the newspaper. The 0849 is always busy with walkers if the weather holds up I think mainly for the early start before it gets too warm rather than the 0947 doesn't stop. the S&C is a popular route for Glasgow because it's the quickest route as long as your journey fits in with the S&C timetable

 

[yorksrob]

I'm inclined to agree with Richmond Commu in that the fast train tends to get in the way of exploring the area (particularly the return service in my experience).

Isn't this the remnant of the old IC service that used to use the line ?

Given their popularity with walkers/tourists/climbers using them, I'd certainly be inclined to stop it at Horton and Ribblehead.

Another bugbear is that it is only two carriages which can be an issue, particularly if one is booked out for a coach party !

Given the lack of trains altogether on a Sunday, I would make that one an all-stopper.

 

[Bantamzen]

G'day everyone,

A few days in Dentdale last week reminded me of several things:

How beautiful the dale is

How changeable the weather is

How well the fells reward hard work

And how useless in my opinion the 09.47 from Leeds is

Why it was decided that the 09.47 should miss the stops at Horton, Ribblehead, Dent and Garsdale is beyond me. If you're traveling from afar for a day in the Dales (as many do) and your not in Leeds until after the 08.49 has departed you won't be in and around the 'mountain section' until lunch time. Whilst this just about gives you enough time to climb one of the three peaks you have less time to spend in the area and as a result the local economy benefits to a much lesser degree.

Whilst I accept that the limited stop service saves around 15 minutes I'd be interested to know how many people use the S & C as a through route between Yorkshire and Scotland. There are some cracking walks from Horton, Ribblehead and Dent but in my opinion the current timetable doesn't allow day trippers to make the most of their day.

Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

As an avid walker of the Dales, I would say to anyone planning a day's or even half day's walking start as early as possible because the weather can close in on you at any time (as you have seen ), and without notice causing you to take considerably longer on your walk. Even on a beautiful morning with a clear forecast the Dales can chuck some pretty unpredictable weather at you, so planning the trip around the 08:49 if travelling through Leeds makes sense, even if this means planning an overnight stay (Add to this the usual basics of waterproofs, rucksack, map, compass, water, food, and good walking boots as standard of course!)

I do sometimes use the 09:47 if I want to head up to Carlisle to meet friends, and yes it is because it is that bit quicker. And if ever there was a re-instatement of the Leeds - Glasgow then I would expect them to take a similar stopping pattern, alternating with all shacks services for all the Dales villages. As other have said not everyone using the line actually stops off, often the draw of the scenery is more than enough whilst others may be heading for Carlisle, The Borders and more than people expect Glasgow & beyond. So the fast does offer a service for these people, meaning a shorter journey time and meaning that the 08:49 can offer more capacity for those wishing to wander around the Dales. Of course more capacity and services along the route would always be welcome should Northern ever wish to consider it, maybe even upgrading some services to Connect when the brand is launched (I wish!).

 

[PHILIPE]

Last time I used this train (heading to Glasgow), it was 3/4 full with the conductor commenting 'everybody's going to Glasgow today' upon seeing my ticket.

Perhaps booking engines direct Glasgow passengers that would otherwise go via the ECML towards this train due to the time saving?

Your journey was during the school holidays, so not exactly typical I'm afraid and what day did you travel? Glasgow is less of a holiday destination and more somewhere you would go because of work (I appreciate this is a generalisation and I'm sure Glasgow is a lovely holiday destination).

Isn't this service the legacy of the SRA in that it used to run all the way to Glasgow, but then was cut back to Carlisle only to avoid abstracting revenue? It made sense to be limited stop when it was a Leeds-Glasgow service.

I appreciate it may not be entirely convenient for the locals/tourists, but as someone whose local station used to be Garsdale it never bothered me. Overall, now that I live further South I quite like the faster service it provides over a much more interesting route and I assume that Northern continue to run this service fast for a reason.

I believe the reason the SRA cut it back to Carlisle was that in the event of failure any chance of quick assistance was completely out of the question due to it's remoteness from any suitable assistance. The knock on effect could have been disastrous.

 

[DarloRich]

Last time I used this train (heading to Glasgow), it was 3/4 full with the conductor commenting 'everybody's going to Glasgow today' upon seeing my ticket.

Perhaps booking engines direct Glasgow passengers that would otherwise go via the ECML towards this train due to the time saving?

More a money saving option as it is much cheaper to use Northern to Carlisle ( especially since they started doing their own v cheap advances) and Virgin/TPE to Glasgow from Carlisle than go via York.

 

[Kite159]

It be similar to the 1549 Carlisle to Leeds service on Saturdays. An useful additional call for that service would be at Hellifield to give a reasonable connection to the final Leeds - Morecambe service [yes I know a walking interchange from Settle to Giggleswick is doable].

(Just to open up an option of a round-trip from say Lancaster - Barrow - Carlisle - Hellifield - Lancaster to cover some scenic routes)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never realised Giggleswick was part of Settle! Doesn't have huge passenger numbers but not as low as I thought it would be (approx 30/day according to Wikilies).

I think the railway generally misses out on "scenic line" and tourist promotion potential.

 

[route101]

G'day everyone,

A few days in Dentdale last week reminded me of several things:

How beautiful the dale is

How changeable the weather is

How well the fells reward hard work

And how useless in my opinion the 09.47 from Leeds is

Why it was decided that the 09.47 should miss the stops at Horton, Ribblehead, Dent and Garsdale is beyond me. If you're traveling from afar for a day in the Dales (as many do) and your not in Leeds until after the 08.49 has departed you won't be in and around the 'mountain section' until lunch time. Whilst this just about gives you enough time to climb one of the three peaks you have less time to spend in the area and as a result the local economy benefits to a much lesser degree.

Whilst I accept that the limited stop service saves around 15 minutes I'd be interested to know how many people use the S & C as a through route between Yorkshire and Scotland. There are some cracking walks from Horton, Ribblehead and Dent but in my opinion the current timetable doesn't allow day trippers to make the most of their day.

Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

I live near Glasgow and have used the settle line over to Leeds . It feels quicker going that way provided you have a decent connection and is cheaper , for example a return is around £30 return via Settle .
Through trains would be a great idea and extend maybe one service to Nottingham . 185s would be great .

 

[yorkie]

This is an 'extra' to the two-hourly stopping service and I think was introduced as a relief service, I think it is a good idea to have 1 limited stop trip to encourage travel on the line.
In another timetable was loco-hauled and had to get back to provide a peak-hour trip to Harrogate.

As someone who travels this route occasionally for the journey, and not for any specific destination, I, too, always make a bee-line for the 0947 precisely because it is "fast".

Agreed. The loss of all fast services would send the wrong message in my opinion. Rather than slow this service down, I'd prefer to see it extended (if practicable).

I worked the 0947 2 Saturdays ago and had a 4 car 158 formation which by the time we left settle was about 1/2 full. It is a very popular service especially when offers such as the winter dales railcard/WY metro card offer is on and when the northern rover tickets are available using the tokens out the newspaper. The 0849 is always busy with walkers if the weather holds up I think mainly for the early start before it gets too warm rather than the 0947 doesn't stop. the S&C is a popular route for Glasgow because it's the quickest route as long as your journey fits in with the S&C timetable

Indeed. The 0947 changing at Carlisle (with a decent connection with sufficient time to get refreshments and stretch your legs) is very competitive with the 1008 through service, with only an 8 minute longer overall journey time from Leeds.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. The loss of all fast services would send the wrong message in my opinion. Rather than slow this service down, I'd prefer to see it extended (if practicable).

Within reason.

I think on a Sunday, when there are only (I think) five trains altogether, it's a frivolity to try and run fast trains when there isn't a decent baseline service.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Within reason.

I think on a Sunday, when there are only (I think) five trains altogether, it's a frivolity to try and run fast trains when there isn't a decent baseline service.

I concur, especially during the summer months.

 

[DarloRich]

Never realised Giggleswick was part of Settle! Doesn't have huge passenger numbers but not as low as I thought it would be (approx 30/day according to Wikilies).

I think the railway generally misses out on "scenic line" and tourist promotion potential.

it wouldn't be a great walk between the two with luggage but is fine for a stroll

 

[Mag_seven]

Slightly off topic and putting reliability issues aside I would like to see one of the Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled sets do a Carlisle - Leeds S&C out and back trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slightly off topic and putting reliability issues aside I would like to see one of the Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled sets do a Carlisle - Leeds S&C out and back trip.

If they could make it not break down it'd no doubt take some extra fares from enthusiasts. Didn't a LHCS set run on there in Arriva Trains Northern days (i.e. post-NorthernSpirit, not the present mob)?

 

[cuccir]

There are also plenty of walks around the area that can be started at Settle or Kirkby Stephen eg 1, 2, 3, etc etc, which could all be done on the 09:47
-
As an aside, and as someone who grew up in Cumbria with the Lakes on my doorstep: the Yorkshire Three Peaks is probably my favourite walk in England. I love the different people, the changing views, and the sense of achievement! Last year we used the 07:14 Saturday service from Ribblehead to Horton before the walk, making our car accessible for lunch/fresh water at Ribblehead mid-walk. A great day and a surprisingly busy service given that it starts in the middle of nowhere on the weekend at such an hour!

 

[RichmondCommu]

There are also plenty of walks around the area that can be started at Settle or Kirkby Stephen eg 1, 2, 3, etc etc, which could all be done on the 09:47
-

The walk Settle is a good wet weather alternative but you would struggle to do the other two if you had traveled up from Derbyshire for the day as my sister did last week.

 

[RichmondCommu]

As an avid walker of the Dales, I would say to anyone planning a day's or even half day's walking start as early as possible because the weather can close in on you at any time (as you have seen ), and without notice causing you to take considerably longer on your walk. Even on a beautiful morning with a clear forecast the Dales can chuck some pretty unpredictable weather at you, so planning the trip around the 08:49 if travelling through Leeds makes sense, even if this means planning an overnight stay (Add to this the usual basics of waterproofs, rucksack, map, compass, water, food, and good walking boots as standard of course!)

I concur however of course the same list applies to many other areas of the country.

However an over night stay in Leeds may not be possible for two reasons.

The only reason that I bothered to notice the stopping pattern of the 09.47 was because that afternoon my sister had sent me a text saying that she had managed to get the following day off work having seen the decent weather forecast and would be joining us for a day in Dentdale. Although my sister could easily afford a hotel room by the time Jaynie had got home from work it would have been too late to set off for Leeds, let alone find accommodation.

Not only that but even if the trip is planned in advance not everyone can afford a hotel room on top of paying for train tickets.

As it happens my sister caught the 10.49, we met her off the train at Dent and enjoyed a walk up to Great Knoutberry Hill via Cowgill and Artengill. The views from the summit are fantastic but with an extra hour we could have had lunch in the Sportmans and put some money into the local economy. Four hours is about right for the walk but with contingency time built in there is little time for anything else.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Regular user of the Carlisle to Leeds line, a line which should get at least a more regulated service every day in each direction IMO.

Current departures from Carlisle at 0550, 0853, 1155, 1404, 1506, 1618 and 1814. Could quite easily run a two hourly service from approx 0600 to 2000 to give 8 trains a day (Assuming Units available etc) instead of the loaded towards mid afternoon bias currently?

Never on a really quiet service, and more often than not they're busy if not nearly full.

The often discussed Leeds to Glasgow via Carlisle gets a big thumbs up too!

 

[Iskra]

I believe the reason the SRA cut it back to Carlisle was that in the event of failure any chance of quick assistance was completely out of the question due to it's remoteness from any suitable assistance. The knock on effect could have been disastrous.

That's a reasonable point to be fair. But what are the chances of both engines failing on a 158?

More a money saving option as it is much cheaper to use Northern to Carlisle ( especially since they started doing their own v cheap advances) and Virgin/TPE to Glasgow from Carlisle than go via York.

True, I forgot about that bit, thanks for reminding me.

Regular user of the Carlisle to Leeds line, a line which should get at least a more regulated service every day in each direction IMO.

Current departures from Carlisle at 0550, 0853, 1155, 1404, 1506, 1618 and 1814. Could quite easily run a two hourly service from approx 0600 to 2000 to give 8 trains a day (Assuming Units available etc) instead of the loaded towards mid afternoon bias currently?

Never on a really quiet service, and more often than not they're busy if not nearly full.

The often discussed Leeds to Glasgow via Carlisle gets a big thumbs up too!

A service improvement is planned/imminent, taking it up to 7 trains a day IIRC.

 

[Adam0984]

A better service is coming on both lines north of Skipton not quite sure what that entails or the service pattern but there is going to be a departure from Leeds filling the gap between 1449 and 1806 which translates to a later departure back from Carlisle to Leeds

 

[70014IronDuke]

A better service is coming on both lines north of Skipton not quite sure what that entails or the service pattern but there is going to be a departure from Leeds filling the gap between 1449 and 1806 which translates to a later departure back from Carlisle to Leeds

Clearly the most important 'strategic' gap to fill. A departure around 16.45 - 17.00 would greatly improve the attractiveness of commuting into Leeds, or indeed, along the line at that end generally.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Within reason.

I think on a Sunday, when there are only (I think) five trains altogether, it's a frivolity to try and run fast trains when there isn't a decent baseline service.

Frivolity? It surely depends on what the traffic flows are, or could be. Not all passengers want to go walkies around Dent.

If a faster service is key to attracting punters doing Leeds (or area) to Glasgow, or anywhere north of Carlisle, then run it. A new Sunday fast from Carlisle connecting out of a WCML ex Glasgow train might prove attractive to passengers who want to get to the West Riding. A stopper might not.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I believe the reason the SRA cut it back to Carlisle was that in the event of failure any chance of quick assistance was completely out of the question due to it's remoteness from any suitable assistance. The knock on effect could have been disastrous.

I thought the reason quoted was that they didn't want 100 mph services mixed in with 125 mph Virgin WCML (or was it 140 mph planned at the time?). Maybe it was a mixture of reasons.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Whilst I see the OP's point, I think on balance it's right for the 0947 to be limited stop. Not only does the limited stopping pattern make it significantly quieter than the 0849, it's also a better train to try and fit your bike on, in an area where cycling is massively popular.
I've been on the 0849 in the past when as many as 9 cyclists have managed to get their bikes on board (it's usually a 158+153) so it's just about possible with a friendly guard. In comparison the 0947 may only be a single 158, but it's much quieter for bikes.