09:28 Reigate to Victoria

[WizCastro197]

The 09:28 from Reigate to London arrives at 10:19 or so at Victoria however I could have sworn when I used this similar service about a month ago or so it was timed at 09:32 like it is on weekends. Anyway, the question is that has Southern timed the service just before 09:30 so therefore peak restrictions apply and such a return to London terminals costs £28 (x2 of us travelling so £56) despite over 95% of the journey is completed outside peak time and arrives well after 10?

The machine said £28 so we went to the ticket office just to make sure that was correct and were told that apparently due to recent extension of the contactless 'fares have been advised by TfL' and such a travelcard was cheaper so we chose that option instead, but still am clueless as to why a travelcard would be cheaper than a London Terminals ticket or how TfL now dictates fares.

As the extension to Reigate for contactless is fairly new, I have not used it but was told by the ticket office that the system would charge my card a peak fare, is this necessarily true and would it have been much cheaper than a ticket and would I have been charged said peak fare?

I just think the situation is a little unfair on Southern's part as on Saturdays (obviously when peak restrictions do not apply) the service is timed at 09:32 and arrives at Victoria at the same 10:19 so am fairly convinced this is just an exercise to gain more money from this service. As such that is a little annoying as between £40-£56 is not an easy amount to part with especially when the journey is only about 20 miles.

Furthermore, the train was 7 minutes late and left at 09:35 so paid peak price for not travelling in peak at all.

I hope that makes sense and am in the right forum.

 

[ChilliSauce]

The 09:28 from Reigate to London arrives at 10:19 or so at Victoria however I could have sworn when I used this similar service about a month ago or so it was timed at 09:32 like it is on weekends. Anyway, the question is that has Southern timed the service just before 09:30 so therefore peak restrictions apply and such a return to London terminals costs £28 (x2 of us travelling so £56) despite over 95% of the journey is completed outside peak time and arrives well after 10?

The machine said £28 so we went to the ticket office just to make sure that was correct and were told that apparently due to recent extension of the contactless 'fares have been advised by TfL' and such a travelcard was cheaper so we chose that option instead, but still am clueless as to why a travelcard would be cheaper than a London Terminals ticket or how TfL now dictates fares.

As the extension to Reigate for contactless is fairly new, I have not used it but was told by the ticket office that the system would charge my card a peak fare, is this necessarily true and would it have been much cheaper than a ticket and would I have been charged said peak fare?

I just think the situation is a little unfair on Southern's part as on Saturdays (obviously when peak restrictions do not apply) the service is timed at 09:32 and arrives at Victoria at the same 10:19 so am fairly convinced this is just an exercise to gain more money from this service. As such that is a little annoying as between £40-£56 is not an easy amount to part with especially when the journey is only about 20 miles.

Furthermore, the train was 7 minutes late and left at 09:35 so paid peak price for not travelling in peak at all.

I hope that makes sense and am in the right forum.

This was the train on Friday 12/12 last weekday day of the summer timetable

 

[JonathanH]

Anyway, the question is that has Southern timed the service just before 09:30 so therefore peak restrictions apply and such a return to London terminals costs £28 (x2 of us travelling so £56) despite over 95% of the journey is completed outside peak time and arrives well after 10?

Until 5 December, the departure time from Reigate didn't matter, because the restriction on tickets to London was based on arrival time in London. That has changed under Project Oval, and the restriction on off-peak day returns now to stations in the Oval area now applies from 0930. Therefore, an anytime ticket is needed.

However, the off-peak day travelcard (£20.60) is valid on this train, as the restriction on that ticket is from 0915 (previously arrivals in London after 0945).

(There are other destinations with a 0930 restriction. For example, an off-peak day return from Reigate to Brighton, or to Portsmouth & Southsea, isn't valid for departure until 0930, and that has nothing to do with Contactless / Project Oval.)

An 0928 departure gives more time for the coupling up to another portion at Redhill, and therefore avoids delaying other services.

The machine said £28 so we went to the ticket office just to make sure that was correct and were told that apparently due to recent extension of the contactless 'fares have been advised by TfL' and such a travelcard was cheaper so we chose that option instead, but still am clueless as to why a travelcard would be cheaper than a London Terminals ticket or how TfL now dictates fares.

As the extension to Reigate for contactless is fairly new, I have not used it but was told by the ticket office that the system would charge my card a peak fare, is this necessarily true and would it have been much cheaper than a ticket and would I have been charged said peak fare?

Contactless has a blanket restriction of 0930 (although a grace period makes this 0927 in practice), consistent with the way that Oyster and Contactless work in London. There is no leeway for single fares on this restriction, so the train operating companies have chosen / been made to fall into line. Unlike the earlier Contactless extension to Redhill, the 'paper' fares are aligned with the Contactless fares from Reigate.

The travelcard is now a bit like an off-peak cap on fares to London, as it doesn't have an afternoon peak restriction, unlike the off-peak day return.

For the moment, splitting at Redhill is the cheapest way to travel to and from London on the 0928 departure. It is £3.60 for an anytime day return from Reigate to Redhill, so the combination of that, and the £15.30 off-peak day return from Redhill to London is £18.90.

Furthermore, the train was 7 minutes late and left at 09:35 so paid peak price for not travelling in peak at all.

The 'paper' off-peak day return / off-peak day single ticket is now not valid on the 09:28 no matter what time is leaves. Obviously travelling on Contactless, you don't need to touch in until the train is in the platform and has a green signal, so you can choose to touch in after 09:30. The Contactless off-peak cap of £20.00 applies for touches after 09:30.

It should also be noted that even if it left at 09:32, if a person with a Contactless card went through the barriers at 09:26, they would be charged a peak fare.

Note that off-peak day returns from Reigate to London are now also not valid for travel back from London between 16:00 and 19:00. The off-peak day travelcard is valid.

All part of the rigidity of the Contactless system that doesn't translate to historical fare setting.

On the plus side, you can now travel at off-peak fares if you touch in at Reigate before 06:30.

 

[Watershed]

It's worth noting that - for now, at least - the fares to/from Betchworth and Redhill remain unchanged. Hence splitting at Redhill or buying a Betchworth ticket and starting 'late' on it may work out cheaper, depending on which exact train you intend to travel on and when you'll be returning.

 

[JonathanH]

Hence splitting at Redhill or buying a Betchworth ticket and starting 'late' on it may work out cheaper, depending on which exact train you intend to travel on and when you'll be returning.

Yes, splitting at Redhill works out as £18.80 or £18.90 depending on whether someone needs to return from Redhill to Reigate between 4pm and 7pm.

Betchworth to London Terminals is £17.40 for an off-peak day return with the 'arrive after 0945' restriction. Travelcards issued at Betchworth have, in my experience, historically worked the barriers at Reigate. I'd be interested to know how the barriers are programmed for time restrictions on off-peak day returns now.

Locally, some people are just switching to travel from Redhill or Earlswood for the time being.

 

[WizCastro197]

Thanks all for the replies, this is disappointing to understand as I liked that particular service due to its convenient arrival time and how it is 12 coaches and isn't as busy as at other times in the day. Is it all possible for said service to be retimed or does the joining of the portion from Gatwick at Redhill hinder this?

I will try purchasing tickets originating from Betchworth next time if I have to use this one but will probably end up using the 10:02, Redhill and Earlswood are no longer convenient for me. If the Betchworth ticket is rejected at the gate surely you can get through the barrier using that assistance option, but not sure how closely they look at the ticket on the camera.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks all for the replies, this is disappointing to understand as I liked that particular service due to its convenient arrival time and how it is 12 coaches and isn't as busy as at other times in the day. Is it all possible for said service to be retimed or does the joining of the portion from Gatwick at Redhill hinder this?

I will try purchasing tickets originating from Betchworth next time if I have to use this one but will probably end up using the 10:02, Redhill and Earlswood are no longer convenient for me. If the Betchworth ticket is rejected at the gate surely you can get through the barrier using that assistance option, but not sure how closely they look at the ticket on the camera.

Usually people who work in Planning take the view that the fares should fit around the train plan, and people who work in Commercial the view that the train plan should fit around the range of available fares. Part of the problem is that most people in planning have no more than a very rudimentary level of knowledge about pricing, and vice versa. Neither are that easy to understand without doing some of the heavy lifting yourself.

GTR wouldn't admit this to you if it were the dynamic that were playing out of course. If you complain it is incredibly unlikely that you will get anything changed I'm afraid. Despite that I'd strongly encourage you to write in with a clear explanation of why the changes are perverse and how they have negatively affect you. I'm happy to assist you with a draft of a letter to customer service if you like.

Otherwise your proposed solution is fine. @JonathanH has explained it all better than me already. As you suggest, don't worry about the ticket gate issue as you can just explain the time restrictions allow you to use that train, though they will probably just let you through regardless if your ticket were not to open the gate.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it all possible for said service to be retimed or does the joining of the portion from Gatwick at Redhill hinder this?

0928 is about as late as the departure from Reigate can be for it to form the front portion from Redhill, given the need for the Gatwick portion to get a proceed signal, reach Redhill, couple, and depart at 0940.

An exception to the peak window for TfL Contactless isn't going to be made for one station.

 

[CyrusWuff]

An exception to the peak window for TfL Contactless isn't going to be made for one station.

Especially considering it's not even a TfL station.

It's almost certain that the 0630 - 0930 restriction is baked into the charging system, though that doesn't mean TfL couldn't change it to allow different peak times, particularly with the Oval area expanding further away from London.

One of the worst-affected stations following the most recent extension is Aylesbury Vale Parkway. Before 7th December, the first Off-Peak train to Marylebone was at 0916 (0913 during the leaf-fall timetable), arriving at 1026. It's now 1013 (1010 during the leaf-fall timetable), arriving at 1123.

Chiltern appear to have acknowledged that by setting it up such that touching in at AVP from 0845 will additionally count towards the Off-Peak cap (though you'll still be charged a Peak fare.) They've also left the restrictions for Off-Peak Day Travelcards from their Phase 2 stations unchanged, so they remain valid on trains scheduled to arrive into Marylebone from 1000 (and, of course, don't have a PM peak restriction.)