Hi, I was travelling from Newton for Hyde (NWN) to Manchester Piccadilly yesterday and noticed a ‘plunger’ on the platform. Could anyone please shed some light on it’s intended function as I’ve never encountered one before, looking online has proved inconclusive. Thank you.
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‘Plunger’ button.
- Thread starter quosh
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It is for the guard to confirm the train has arrived complete with it's tail lamp as the signalling system in use between Dinting box and Manchester East SCC isn't able to verify that. It is absolute block signalling which normally relies on the signaller being able to see the tail lamp on the train - obviously the signaller at Manchester East isn't local (they're in Stockport) so this was the solution used before CCTV cameras and it has never been updated.
Below is the sectional appendix local instruction.
"Train arrived complete’ plunger. Guards of Down trains arriving at Newton station must confirm that their train is complete then operate the train arrived complete plunger to enable the signaller at Manchester East S.C.C. to release the signalling equipment.
Hyde Junction duplicate ‘Train arrived complete' plunger. A duplicate train arrived complete plunger is provided at signal GB.867 on the Down Main line. This plunger is for use only when instructed by the signaller at Manchester East S.C.C. in the event of the plunger at Newton station having failed to operate correctly."
Wow, that’s a wonderfully comprehensive reply - my friend is a guard for Northern and I’m now curious to know if he was taught about this when route learning (unsure if he’s done the Hadfield line yet though). Many thanks for taking the time to educate me (and probably others!) there’s always more to learn!
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Awesome. Thank you very much for linking to this, I’ll get stuck in!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
"Plunger" is the generic name for a signalling-related button not inside a signal box. You also see them variously for Close Doors, Train Ready to Start, and Right Away, though they might key switches instead or hidden in locked boxes so the general public don't use them. It's perhaps a bit concerning that this one looks to be positioned where anyone can press it, but has the safety-vital function of confirming train out of section and could allow a following train to be let into the same section. However, the wording above indicates that the guard should phone through as well, which provides a backup.
Oftentimes plungers are interlocked with track circuits in areas such as these - i.e. a train has to physically be in the platform for it to operate. This does somewhat reduce the issue of bad actors, and reduces the change of someone doing it without a guard on the platform noticing.
Gloster
Veteran Member
There used to be (forty years ago) one at Bradford on Avon for trains heading towards Westbury. There was a tunnel just beyond the platform, which had a signal on the end, and an AHB crossing immediately beyond the tunnel. Bradford Junction Signal Box had a selector switch on the block shelf which was turned one way for a non-stop train and the other for one stopping at the station.
If the train was non-stop the barriers just worked to the normal automatic sequence and the signal at the end of the platform would work as a normal automatic and clear if the track-circuits were clear. If it was a stopping train the signal would remain at red and the guard would operate the plunger when station work was completed, after which the barrier sequence would start, resulting in the signal clearing once they were down.
If the train was non-stop the barriers just worked to the normal automatic sequence and the signal at the end of the platform would work as a normal automatic and clear if the track-circuits were clear. If it was a stopping train the signal would remain at red and the guard would operate the plunger when station work was completed, after which the barrier sequence would start, resulting in the signal clearing once they were down.
A very long time ago, some signals were equipped with a "Fireman's Call Plunger" instead of a telephone to save the fireman a trek to the box to comply with Rule 55.
iamraymond
Member
I couldn't walk past that without pressing to find out what it did
edwin_m
Veteran Member
A big sign would light up saying "do not press this plunger again".I couldn't walk past that without pressing to find out what it did
greatkingrat
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I don't think there is any requirement to phone as well (unless the plunger isn't working). If you had to phone the signaller anyway, there would be no point having a plunger.
driver9000
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If they sign the route then they should know about the local instructions and location of any equipment they are required to operate as part of their route knowledge.
CC 72100
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Its still there, and whilst Bradford Junction signal box is now long gone and the area under control of Westbury, it all still works as described.
renegademaster
Established Member
If there's a track circuit that proves a train to be there why do you need manual confirmation?
Because there aren't track circuits throughout the section, just on arrival there, it's called a berth track circuit and in the event of an omission by the signaller causes the block equipment to work to train on line as a fail safe. It detects that a train is there, but not necessarily that it is all the train that left Dinting hence the manual confirmation.
It was a cost saving system put in place in the 80s when the Woodhead route shut, originally into Guide Bridge and Dinting boxes but moved to Manchester East from Guide Bridge when it closed.
Whisky Papa
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As a former member of relief station staff based at Glossop, I occasionally worked at Newton-for-Hyde (indeed my last shift in that post was a Saturday morning there) and one of the specific staff duties upon opening up was to check that the plunger had not been tampered with.
01d-and
Member
Not sure if it still applies but the driver of the Lickey Banker used to have to press the plunger to acknowledge that the banker was 'ready to push' , the plunger though could be some way away from the train awaiting assistance.
Sprinter107
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Theres still a plunger at Ledbury on the upside which the guard has to press upon on arrival to give "train complete"
There are also plungers on both platforms at Worcester Foregate Street which the station staff use when a train is ready to depart.
There are also plungers on both platforms at Worcester Foregate Street which the station staff use when a train is ready to depart.
IIRC "Train ready to start" and "Right away" plungers operated by platform staff were relatively widespread, especially at busy stations or those with awkward sight lines. Is this still the case or is human decision taking being replaced by technology?
norbitonflyer
Established Member
They are used at some Tube terminal stations such as Elephant & Castle where "stepping back" is practiced. Operated by the incoming driver to inform the signalling system and/or the outgoing driver that he has left the cab. (If he gets carried away it will duisrpt the scehdule as there will be no-one to take the next train out)
edwin_m
Veteran Member
They are still common. Automated systems could clear the signal at the relevant time but there's always the possibility that the train isn't ready due to something like waiting for traincrew or boarding a wheelchair. Only the platform staff will know that. Replacing the signal to danger if the train can't go needs the signaller to confirm with the driver then wait for a 2min timeout, so TRTS plungers are often used when there are multiple routes beyond the platform ends. A right away plunger lights a RA indicator on the signal, and can be most effective way for platform staff to tell the driver everything is OK for the train to leave, with the advantage that the RA indicator is interlocked with the signal so won't light up if it's red.
andy33gmail
Member
I wonder what would happen if a 4+4 MU set off, and only 4 arrived. Would the station staff see a normal train & merrily press it anyway?
No, because it is the guard who presses it and along with the driver they will know the formation of their own train. If the station staff were required to press it then they would check for the tail lights first.
There's also one at Barrow in Furness.
And new ones are still being installed, for example at Wokingham during the Feltham resignalling in 2024. I presume that it is needed for when the turnback facility is used, and trains terminate and then wait and return later. When the signaller was in the box just off the end of the station they could see the platforms and be told directly from there what was planned. Once that function has moved to Basingstoke ROC that does not happen so easily.
andy33gmail
Member
Are the lights under manual control and turned off for the “middle” cabs then? In my head it would be a setting for the whole train, and they’d either all be on regardless of coupling, or suppressed when coupled
Yeah, more modern trains can have an auto setting for the tail lights but in their basic form they're turned on and off manually and should always be off in the middle of the train.