‘Congestion on the line’

[spp]

For those of us less initiated (I’m just a regular train traveller) why would this cause a 45min delay and subsequent skipping of stations.

I was on the 17.33 Liverpool to Birmingham service yesterday, it got to Crewe a couple of minutes late but was then held at Crewe for 45 mins. No real comms from the train manager (other than after around 25mins to say we were waiting on a red signal).

I saw a tweet from LNW to someone on my train saying it was due to ‘congestion issues’. Nothing left Crewe in a southern direction while we sat there!

Now I fully understand delays when theres faulty trains, signal issues or when the worst happens but I’ve never come across such a long delay for ‘line congestion’. A few minutes yes but this just stinks of a planning mistake for me?

To make matters worse just before pulling into Stafford the train manager found his voice to inform us the train would no longer call at Penkridge, Wolverhampton or Smeth Galton Bridge. As my destination was Wolverhampton I had to get off at Stafford and board the next available train.

To make matters even worse looking at realtime the train did stop at Wolverhampton and only skipped Penkridge despite the advice the train manager repeated that it wouldn’t.

 

[The Planner]

For those of us less initiated (I’m just a regular train traveller) why would this cause a 45min delay and subsequent skipping of stations.

I was on the 17.33 Liverpool to Birmingham service yesterday, it got to Crewe a couple of minutes late but was then held at Crewe for 45 mins. No real comms from the train manager (other than after around 25mins to say we were waiting on a red signal).

I saw a tweet from LNW to someone on my train saying it was due to ‘congestion issues’. Nothing left Crewe in a southern direction while we sat there!

Now I fully understand delays when theres faulty trains, signal issues or when the worst happens but I’ve never come across such a long delay for ‘line congestion’. A few minutes yes but this just stinks of a planning mistake for me?

To make matters worse just before pulling into Stafford the train manager found his voice to inform us the train would no longer call at Penkridge, Wolverhampton or Smeth Galton Bridge. As my destination was Wolverhampton I had to get off at Stafford and board the next available train.

To make matters even worse looking at realtime the train did stop at Wolverhampton and only skipped Penkridge despite the advice the train manager repeated that it wouldn’t.

It was to do with a fatality at Bushey in north London. Chances are Stafford might have been full with trains being held back, hence the congestion.

 

[KNN]

To make matters even worse looking at realtime the train did stop at Wolverhampton and only skipped Penkridge despite the advice the train manager repeated that it wouldn’t.

I wouldn't take this as gospel, RTT is a "best endeavours" information source at times as it relies on the data being clear. If the guard said it wasn't stopping at Wolverhampton it likely didn't.

It isn't what people want to hear, but you are usually told as soon as the staff know for definite what is going to happen.

 

[Rab Smith]

The subsequent wait for your second train at Stafford would have almost certainly put you over the hour for a delay repay of 100% single or 50% off your return?

 

[Tom]

I wouldn't take this as gospel, RTT is a "best endeavours" information source at times as it relies on the data being clear. If the guard said it wasn't stopping at Wolverhampton it likely didn't.

It isn't what people want to hear, but you are usually told as soon as the staff know for definite what is going to happen.

It definitely stopped in the platform for 4 minutes. Whether the doors released during that time is a different question. (It looks like it called in Darwin, as well.)

Having said that the call at Penkridge which is clearly didn't stop at wasn't removed from Darwin, so...

 

[spp]

It was to do with a fatality at Bushey in north London. Chances are Stafford might have been full with trains being held back, hence the congestion.

Held back that far north though and for that long?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

I wouldn't take this as gospel, RTT is a "best endeavours" information source at times as it relies on the data being clear. If the guard said it wasn't stopping at Wolverhampton it likely didn't.

It isn't what people want to hear, but you are usually told as soon as the staff know for definite what is going to happen.

Ah ok I always took RTT as gospel. I could have understand not calling at Penkridge and Galton Bridge but was quite shocked when he said not calling at Wolverhampton either being a bigger station with various potential journey changes at.

Yes I understand the train manager might not have been known what was going on but my criticism is the fact they aren’t told. The person who runs the lnw twitter handle clearly knew well before the guard made an announcement so it’s poor comms somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

The subsequent wait for your second train at Stafford would have almost certainly put you over the hour for a delay repay of 100% single or 50% off your return?

To be honest I ignored the train managers advice as we pulled in at 19.29 his advice was to wait for the 19.40 to Birmingham. I could see myself from RTT that a) that was already delayed till 19.48 at that point but b) there was a late running Southampton train (calling at Wolverhampton) due in just behind us on the same platform so I got on that so think it was just under an hour delay. Whether I omit that part when putting in the delay repay claim is between me and my conscious I suppose.

Again frustrating that I can work that out but the people who work for LNW couldn’t. Many others took the advice and were delayed further.

 

[The Planner]

Held back that far north though and for that long?

Yes, the view is that stacking trains up in open countryside isn't ideal, so station platforms are used incase the view is to detrain at some point. Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton etc would fill up pretty quickly.

 

[spp]

Yes, the view is that stacking trains up in open countryside isn't ideal, so station platforms are used incase the view is to detrain at some point. Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton etc would fill up pretty quickly.

Yeah that does make sense I agree would much prefer to be sitting at a station rather than in between just wish there’d have been better communication really. I expect they’d have know how ‘backed up’ everything was so could have at least given an idea.

Quite indicative of my main gripe with the railway really. Seems to be no joined up communication and they seem to only want to drip feed passengers limited information.

 

[saismee]

Quite indicative of my main gripe with the railway really. Seems to be no joined up communication and they seem to only want to drip feed passengers limited information.

Reminder that every time control gets an update, they have to inform every single train and station manager for the affected area. It sounds to me like that area is quite large. Yes, the TM could've used an app to check updates, but it isn't always updated and they may not have had time to. The social media team will be in the same room as the control, so they will be updated first.

No, it isn't ideal, especially for confused passengers. You also need to remember that they don't want to give incorrect advice/information then immediately switch it up 5 minutes later once they have new information.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Held back that far north though and for that long?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==


Ah ok I always took RTT as gospel. I could have understand not calling at Penkridge and Galton Bridge but was quite shocked when he said not calling at Wolverhampton either being a bigger station with various potential journey changes at.

Yes I understand the train manager might not have been known what was going on but my criticism is the fact they aren’t told. The person who runs the lnw twitter handle clearly knew well before the guard made an announcement so it’s poor comms somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==


To be honest I ignored the train managers advice as we pulled in at 19.29 his advice was to wait for the 19.40 to Birmingham. I could see myself from RTT that a) that was already delayed till 19.48 at that point but b) there was a late running Southampton train (calling at Wolverhampton) due in just behind us on the same platform so I got on that so think it was just under an hour delay. Whether I omit that part when putting in the delay repay claim is between me and my conscious I suppose.

Again frustrating that I can work that out but the people who work for LNW couldn’t. Many others took the advice and were delayed further.

Yes. Stafford had no free platforms and the trains weren't likely to move by the time your train would have arrived so it was ordered to remain in the platform. This happens very often across all the lines I've ever worked.

The SC would probably not have received any information from control until after departing, something that supposedly is being looked at by heads of departments, but they should have made announcements even if they didn't know the issue at that point. The issue that there is a Comms system in use that Control and the customer service team have access to and a Comms system for train crew, control stopped using the one that train crew have access to around 2 years ago and it's been a challenge to get this rectified.

 

[pompeyfan]

The issue that there is a Comms system in use that Control and the customer service team have access to and a Comms system for train crew, control stopped using the one that train crew have access to around 2 years ago and it's been a challenge to get this rectified.

If that’s true (and I’m not saying you’re lying, but sometimes there’s deeper issues like union agreements or other technicalities) then that’s really really poor.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If that’s true (and I’m not saying you’re lying, but sometimes there’s deeper issues like union agreements or other technicalities) then that’s really really poor.

It's nothing to do with the unions. It's been a major project with CEx team for a long time, and director was heading the project and has no left. So we're back to square one with it.

 

[spp]

Reminder that every time control gets an update, they have to inform every single train and station manager for the affected area. It sounds to me like that area is quite large. Yes, the TM could've used an app to check updates, but it isn't always updated and they may not have had time to. The social media team will be in the same room as the control, so they will be updated first.

No, it isn't ideal, especially for confused passengers. You also need to remember that they don't want to give incorrect advice/information then immediately switch it up 5 minutes later once they have new information.

Lovely sarcastic response.

Maybe they could inform the trains actually affected? Or have some sort of centralised message go out?

No time to do so? Let’s be clear on the time line;
Arrive at Crewe don’t move (no info given despite TM clearly having access to info as had announced every platform for connections on the run up to Crewe)
20mins in still no comms but I can read LNW have tweeted someone explaining what the issues are
30mins in eventually an announcement not really giving reasons (that the social media team had) but saying waiting at a red light (accept not incorrect but no where near as informative as could have been)
45mins in eventually move.

You say they don’t want to give incorrect information yet on the approach to Stafford the TM twice gave incorrect info, initially they advised people to swap to a train that was leaving 1 minute before we got in and from another platform and then told everyone to wait for an already delayed train (conveniently without mentioning it was delayed) ignoring a far more suitable option that even I as a lamon (and ironically an off duty avanti staff member who just happened to be on the train) could work out.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Lovely sarcastic response.

Maybe they could inform the trains actually affected? Or have some sort of centralised message go out?

No time to do so? Let’s be clear on the time line;
Arrive at Crewe don’t move (no info given despite TM clearly having access to info as had announced every platform for connections on the run up to Crewe)
20mins in still no comms but I can read LNW have tweeted someone explaining what the issues are
30mins in eventually an announcement not really giving reasons (that the social media team had) but saying waiting at a red light (accept not incorrect but no where near as informative as could have been)
45mins in eventually move.

You say they don’t want to give incorrect information yet on the approach to Stafford the TM twice gave incorrect info, initially they advised people to swap to a train that was leaving 1 minute before we got in and from another platform and then told everyone to wait for an already delayed train (conveniently without mentioning it was delayed) ignoring a far more suitable option that even I as a lamon (and ironically an off duty avanti staff member who just happened to be on the train) could work out.

I don't believe that response was sarcastic, but just wanted to give the the angle the Conductor would have had.

Arrived into Crewe unaware of any issues
Sat in platform on a red signal.
Driver likely informs of being held by signaller (may have misunderstood as simply being held at the signal)
Conductor relays message about being held at red signal, awaiting more information.
Train departs late, conductor now receives information from control with ammended calling pattern.

Please be aware that just because a tweet has gone out, that doesn't mean the conductor has that information. Twitter is not on our work phones.

The app used for Comms on our work phone no longer receives ANY messaging, and likely the phone lines to control would be engaged as they are contacting all adds ted trains on the route, prioritise those in the immediate area and are possibly trapped.

Absolutely communication should be better to train crew, and there should have been better announcements whilst you were stuck at Crewe. Don't presume that train crew have even the same level of information that you had.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't believe that response was sarcastic, but just wanted to give the the angle the Conductor would have had.

Arrived into Crewe unaware of any issues
Sat in platform on a red signal.
Driver likely informs of being held by signaller (may have misunderstood as simply being held at the signal)
Conductor relays message about being held at red signal, awaiting more information.
Train departs late, conductor now receives information from control with ammended calling pattern.

Please be aware that just because a tweet has gone out, that doesn't mean the conductor has that information. Twitter is not on our work phones.

The app used for Comms on our work phone no longer receives ANY messaging, and likely the phone lines to control would be engaged as they are contacting all adds ted trains on the route, prioritise those in the immediate area and are possibly trapped.

Absolutely communication should be better to train crew, and there should have been better announcements whilst you were stuck at Crewe. Don't presume that train crew have even the same level of information that you had.

if a Tweet has gone out, then someone has told the social media team so really there should be no reason not to get at least the same to the crews? You mention that the comms app no longer receives messages, is there a reason why? I mean a comms app should be capable of relaying messages, unless there's been a policy change or the app is 20 years out of date. Either way that sounds head-shakingly bad.

 

[saismee]

Lovely sarcastic response.

I apologise as I didn't intend it to sound sarcastic, I was just giving my point of view (and experience).

and even I ... (an off duty avanti staff member who just happened to be on the train)

If you work for any TOC in any remotely customer-facing role then you should understand how poor the information is.

if a Tweet has gone out, then someone has told the social media team

They will be in the same room. They would likely be able to tell the social media team face-to-face in only 10 seconds of walking.

 

[Bantamzen]

They will be in the same room. They would likely be able to tell the social media team face-to-face in only 10 seconds of walking.

And between them they should, nay ought to be able to communicate to crews.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

if a Tweet has gone out, then someone has told the social media team so really there should be no reason not to get at least the same to the crews? You mention that the comms app no longer receives messages, is there a reason why? I mean a comms app should be capable of relaying messages, unless there's been a policy change or the app is 20 years out of date. Either way that sounds head-shakingly bad.

The app was introduced around 2023 as an all-in-one solution, but the team who created it were moved onto other projects. It was never enforced that control should update that app and so they use the one they have been using and disregard it (despite it explicitly being in their job description). We don't even have Tyrell as a backup (this was used prior to the new app).

A new director promised a new solution at the start of 2024 as they couldn't believe information was not being passed efficiently or effectively. They have since left the business haven't not achieved their aim, so we are back to square one.

All information between control and train crew is done via manual phonecalls. In 2025!

The social media/customer service team get the information passed by the Information Controller. It's the Train Service Manager who we are in contact with for all but trivial things.

 

[Bantamzen]

The app was introduced around 2023 as an all-in-one solution, but the team who created it were moved onto other projects. It was never enforced that control should update that app and so they use the one they have been using and disregard it (despite it explicitly being in their job description). We don't even have Tyrell as a backup (this was used prior to the new app).

A new director promised a new solution at the start of 2024 as they couldn't believe information was not being passed efficiently or effectively. They have since left the business haven't not achieved their aim, so we are back to square one.

All information between control and train crew is done via manual phonecalls. In 2025!

The social media/customer service team get the information passed by the Information Controller. It's the Train Service Manager who we are in contact with for all but trivial things.

What a mess! But thanks for the explanation, maybe one day you'll get a comms system that isn't rooted in the last century!

 

[norbitonflyer]

. I could see myself from RTT that a) that was already delayed till 19.48 at that point but b) there was a late running Southampton train (calling at Wolverhampton) due in just behind us on the same platform so I got on that so think it was just under an hour delay. Whether I omit that part when putting in the delay repay claim is between me and my conscious I suppose.

Again frustrating that I can work that out but the people who work for LNW couldn’t. Many others took the advice and were delayed further.

Maybe ticket acceptance hadnt been ardanged wirh Cross Country, or it was known to be full and standing?

 

[Horizon22]

if a Tweet has gone out, then someone has told the social media team so really there should be no reason not to get at least the same to the crews? You mention that the comms app no longer receives messages, is there a reason why? I mean a comms app should be capable of relaying messages, unless there's been a policy change or the app is 20 years out of date. Either way that sounds head-shakingly bad.

Sending a tweet - which goes out to all followers and is a blanket, generic message - is much easier than the information controller or a service controller advising individual drivers / station staff / train crew about an individual alteration where they also have a number of other tasks, such as amending platforms, amending services, calling stations, liasising with other colleagues / signallers / NR staff / checking crew and fleet workings.

Train crew might / should have access to something like Arrakis, which is a app with a live feed through of service alterations that have been made (you can also select your own train), but most agreements state that the impacted crew must be individually told about an amendment so there is no confusion about what is happening, which seems reasonable and prevents mistakes.

Quality of information during disruption to all sources (including both passengers, internal and external staff) is always a challenge because when a big incident happens you suddenly want loads of info / service and fleet controllers to support workload, but 99% of the time all those extra people would be twiddling their thumbs, so no right person is going to fund those additional roles. So there has to be a balance.

As for the OP's original question, ultimately the congestion was caused by a fatality, and therefore the delay/alteration/cancellation reason should have been stated as that. Perhaps it was via Darwin (CIS and apps), but the TM paraphrased it.

 

[Tom]

As for the OP's original question, ultimately the congestion was caused by a fatality, and therefore the delay/alteration/cancellation reason should have been stated as that. Perhaps it was via Darwin (CIS and apps), but the TM paraphrased it.

I have checked Darwin logs for that train service and I can't really see anything there. I can't see the change mentioned by the OP - and nor can I even see a delay reason.

The train in question did stop at Wolverhampton for 4 minutes. Doors opening - you'd have to know and be there. But it did not stop at Penkridge. Woe betide those at Penkridge expecting it...

 

[Horizon22]

I have checked Darwin logs for that train service and I can't really see anything there. I can't see the change mentioned by the OP - and nor can I even see a delay reason.

The train in question did stop at Wolverhampton for 4 minutes. Doors opening - you'd have to know and be there. But it did not stop at Penkridge. Woe betide those at Penkridge expecting it...

Well sadly it's also not unheard of for some amendments not being processed, which can be for a variety of reasons.

 

[Bedpan]

Yes, the view is that stacking trains up in open countryside isn't ideal, so station platforms are used incase the view is to detrain at some point. Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton etc would fill up pretty quickly.

I remember being held at Newcastle for an hour due to a fatality in the Sandy area, must have been over 200 miles away, although probably fewer intermediate stations than between Crewe and Bushey

 

[Bantamzen]

Sending a tweet - which goes out to all followers and is a blanket, generic message - is much easier than the information controller or a service controller advising individual drivers / station staff / train crew about an individual alteration where they also have a number of other tasks, such as amending platforms, amending services, calling stations, liasising with other colleagues / signallers / NR staff / checking crew and fleet workings.

Train crew might / should have access to something like Arrakis, which is a app with a live feed through of service alterations that have been made (you can also select your own train), but most agreements state that the impacted crew must be individually told about an amendment so there is no confusion about what is happening, which seems reasonable and prevents mistakes.

Quality of information during disruption to all sources (including both passengers, internal and external staff) is always a challenge because when a big incident happens you suddenly want loads of info / service and fleet controllers to support workload, but 99% of the time all those extra people would be twiddling their thumbs, so no right person is going to fund those additional roles. So there has to be a balance.

As for the OP's original question, ultimately the congestion was caused by a fatality, and therefore the delay/alteration/cancellation reason should have been stated as that. Perhaps it was via Darwin (CIS and apps), but the TM paraphrased it.

My main point here is that if the social media team are in possession of the most up to date and relevant information, the train crews really should be getting this as well. I know from personal experience over the years that occasionally members of the public, including myself, have actually been passing on information to staff that they were not aware of. It's a terrible optic to say the least, and is not an insurmountable problem by any means. For example if controllers are busy with priority duties and unable to handle train crew comms, have a contingency in place to hand that off, say to trained members of the social media team. Yes it would add a bit of cost in terms of training, refreshing, salaries etc, but it's a tiny cost compared the overall running of the operation and would yield massive benefits, including potentially reducing Delay Repay costs.

 

[Horizon22]

My main point here is that if the social media team are in possession of the most up to date and relevant information, the train crews really should be getting this as well. I know from personal experience over the years that occasionally members of the public, including myself, have actually been passing on information to staff that they were not aware of. It's a terrible optic to say the least, and is not an insurmountable problem by any means. For example if controllers are busy with priority duties and unable to handle train crew comms, have a contingency in place to hand that off, say to trained members of the social media team. Yes it would add a bit of cost in terms of training, refreshing, salaries etc, but it's a tiny cost compared the overall running of the operation and would yield massive benefits, including potentially reducing Delay Repay costs.

You’ve exactly pointed out the issue I had above. The social media team are busy doing their own tasks, replying to individual comments etc. Their workload goes up substantially during disruption (as done everyone’s).

Having a “contingency team” is a great idea in principle until you realise 99% of the time they’d be doing nothing.

You’d need to train other staff from other parts of the business to assist - this sort of thing has been trialled before and didn’t work because even though they knew a bit more they were still asking the permanent colleagues for the next steps.

 

[Bantamzen]

You’ve exactly pointed out the issue I had above. The social media team are busy doing their own tasks, replying to individual comments etc. There workload goes up substantially during disruption (as done everyone’s).

Having a “contingency team” is a great idea in principle until you realise 99% of the time they’d be doing nothing. You’d need to train other staff from other parts of the business to assist - this sort of thing has been trialled before and didn’t work because even though they knew a bit more they were still asking the permanent colleagues for the next steps.

Having a contingency doesn't necessarily mean having a bunch of people in a cupboard waiting for action 1% of the time though. It means having the staffing and structure that allows for good comms, with skills across the board, and have inbuilt capacity for when things go pointy bits up. There will always be some work that can be parked when it happens, without impacting on the important comms, it's just a matter of good organisation.

 

[Horizon22]

Having a contingency doesn't necessarily mean having a bunch of people in a cupboard waiting for action 1% of the time though. It means having the staffing and structure that allows for good comms, with skills across the board, and have inbuilt capacity for when things go pointy bits up. There will always be some work that can be parked when it happens, without impacting on the important comms, it's just a matter of good organisation.

Which means extra staff available at all times, being able to down tools at their “day job” to assist controllers.

You can call it “Inbuilt capacity” or whatever you like but fundamentally it’s extra people / money / resources being available.

Now this can occur to some extent now with loggers and note takers, but trust me when I say that when multiple companies have tried to do more than that it starts falling apart because lines get blurred, communications get muddled (more than they already are), and their ability to do the role is often dependent on what the substantive employee has planned unless you can clearly and effectively split the work (I.e carving the route in two, or one looking at reforming terminus workings) without crossing over.

For example taking a call from a guard or a driver is all well and good, but if your response is “please hold I need to confirm with my colleague” and that person is already on the phone and has other calls stacked, and needs to liaise with the information controller & another person, you’ve just added yet another task to their list.

In principle this is all reasonable, and some element of contingency is practical and can be made more efficient, but when you get down to the logistics and day-to-day operations it gets very messy indeed. Senior people in the industry and have been looking at this for decades, if not longer to try and improve the consistency.

 

[Bantamzen]

Which means extra staff available at all times, being able to down tools at their “day job” to assist controllers.

You can call it “Inbuilt capacity” or whatever you like but fundamentally it’s extra people / money / resources being available.

Now this can occur to some extent now with loggers and notetakers, but trust me when I say that when multiple companies have tried to do more than that it starts falling apart because lines get blurred, communications get muddled (more than they already are), and their ability to do the role is often dependent on what the substantive employee has planned unless you can clearly and effectively split the work (I.e carving the route in two, or one looking at reforming terminus workings) without crossing over.
For example taking a call from a guard or a driver is all well and good, but if your response is “please hold I need to confirm with my colleague” and that person is already on the phone and has other calls stacked, and needs to liaise with the information controller & another person, you’ve just added yet another task to their list.

In principle this is all reasonable, and some element of contingency is practical and can be made more efficient, but when you get down to the logistics and day-to-day operations it gets very messy indeed. Senior people in the industry and have been looking at this for decades, if not longer to try and improve the consistency.

Well I know this kind of thing is possible, we certainly have contingencies baked into our work where I am.

If something urgent comes up, or something goes up in smoke, we have systems in play where we can almost immediately park less important jobs and move the right people to work on the priorities & track all of this through.

It doesn't need staff to spend any time doing nothing, it just needs enough people within suitable skills as well as a structure capable of managing the priorities.

There's countless software solutions for this kind of workforce management available off the shelf, although bespoke products tailored to a company's specific needs is preferable if more expensive. Heck maybe someone on the forum could put something together for the right price!

 

[Spartacus]

Trouble with all this is if you want to get information out to the crews, you want it to be accurate, and as things are ever changing in a live incident you don't want to be too quick sending details out which can quickly prove to be quite wrong when full information comes to light or the situation changes, and it takes a bit of time to come up with a plan of action.

A suspected fatality can quickly change into a minor animal strike, and vice versa. Socials get give pretty well a running commentary if they want, and they can delete posts that might be misleading if things change.

There's only so much you can speed up giving out info before you lose accuracy, and that causes problems, potentially dangerous ones.