£546.50p FINE! Please help!

[Paulcon]

Right...... I need some advice to say the least.

On August 8th 2011 I travelled from Skegness to London Kings Cross.

I paid for my tickets in advance via www.thetrainline.com

I collected my tickets from the ticket machine in Skegness with the reference number provided by the trainline.com

Once I arrived at Grantham I needed to change onto a East Coast train for which I HAD a reserved seat as I booked my tickets in advance only to find that I lost the ticket with my reserved seat details on.

As I wasn't 100% which coach/number my seat was I just decided to sit on the floor next to the toilets as the train was rather full.

A female ticket inspector then said she would need to charge me the full price of a ticket again! Even though I still had the 1st part of my ticket, receipt and reference number!

A few days later I appeal against the fine/penalty charge and provide my full booking details, reference number and also a screen shot of the confirmation of details with the email I got from the trainline.com showing that I was on the correct train etc.

I then moved address in jan 2012

Last week I then received a debt collection notice of £546.50p!

I'm in court 7th November 2013 to fight this.

Any advice?

 

[island]

One of the problems here is that your ticket said "valid only with reservation(s)" and as you didn't have a reservation, the guard was within her rights to require you to buy a new one.

 

[Paulcon]

Well Island, that was no help at all. Yes I'm aware that the Ticket inspector was within her right but I also had a booking reference & receipt.
I also provide enough evidence in the appeal to only hear from them 2 years later asking or over £500!

 

[soil]

Could you be more specific about the 'debt collection notice' and the court appearance?

What does the debt collection notice say?

Has there been any previous court hearing according to the letters you have received, sent to your previous address?

On what basis are you attending court? Have you applied for this or is it a court summons? What kind of court is it?

 

[telstarbox]

What was the price of the ticket you were sold on board the train?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm assuming that this is a (relatively) straightforward civil debt for an unpaid rail fare plus subsequent administrative costs, is that right?
And, are you going to Court because the Company has instigated proceedings against you for having failed to pay the debt ?

Would it also be right to say that you've not been in correspondence with the Company to challenge the fare and costs over the past 2 years, and that the Company has been trying to recover their debt without any response from you?

I must say that "fighting this" 2 years after the event isn't an effective way of dealing with these charges, I would have recommended paying at the time, and then attempting to recover your costs after the event (in a legal action, if justified by circumstances - apparently not in your circumstances).

If you really have had no correspondence with the Company over the past 2 years and are only communicating now that you are a week away from an appearance in Court, then I struggle to see what advice can be offered, other than trying to save yourself a few more pounds by paying now, rather than incurring the Claimant's legal costs on the day (but they will already have paid the Court's Fee and will have added that to your claim.).

The part of your story about sitting on the floor and having one of the 2 ticket coupons doesn't really make any difference; it might have helped on the day, with an honest and apologetic bit of pleading, but certainly not now, 2 years later. Sorry.

 

[richw]

An unpaid court fine may result in Bailiffs visiting rather than a debt collection company. Depending where you are in the country unpaid court fines will be chased by one of three companies, each are certified bailiff companies as well as collections companies:
• Marston Group Ltd (HMCS North West, South West and South East)
• Philips Collection Services (HMCS North East, Midlands, London).
• Swift Credit Services Ltd and Excel Enforcement: (HMCS Welsh regions)

(These companies hold contract until 2014 for enforcing court fines)

If you have been issued a court fine and you were unaware of the fine for any reason, you need to swear a simple Statutory Declaration to have the fine set aside. Contact your local court to find about this

 

[yorkie]

We need more information, such as what fare have you been charged, how many passengers were there, what correspondence has taken place?

If the guard is treating you as potentially being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket (which is understandable as you sere unable to prove otherwise by showing the reservation coupon) then my understanding is that the appropriate fare should be charged, rather than the full fare. Edit: The new rules were not yet in force when this incident occurred.

Do you hold any Railcards? What time were you travelling?

Have you written to East Coast directly?

Have you contacted Passenger Focus?

 

[Harlesden]

I cannot see that you were asked to pay any fine/penalty whilst on the train.
You were travelling without a ticket and were asked to purchase a new ticket.
This is totally normal procedure.
In respect of your change of address, it was totally reasonable for the TOC to assume that you were simply ignoring correspondence from them.
You might have avoided a lot of problems if you had kept in contact with the people to whom you sent your original appeal advising them of your change of address.
As far as I can see, there is nothing to "fight".

 

[Flamingo]

If the guard is treating you as potentially being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket (which is understandable as you sere unable to prove otherwise by showing the reservation coupon) then my understanding is that the appropriate fare should be charged, rather than the full fare.

This was two years ago Yorkie, the rules in place then was a full open single if no reservation coupon.

 

[IanXC]

Were you issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice (or any other paperwork) on the day?

If the guard is treating you as potentially being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket (which is understandable as you sere unable to prove otherwise by showing the reservation coupon) then my understanding is that the appropriate fare should be charged, rather than the full fare.

Doesn't August 2011 predate the change from full to appropriate?

 

[island]

Some clarification would be helpful as to whether the OP has been convicted of an offence in his absence or whether a civil debt is being pursued. It seems to me to be the latter but I could be wrong.

 

[34D]

Where is your court appearance on 7th Nov? PM if you prefer (the full name of the court please).

Whom precisely is instigating the claim?

How many passengers, in each age group:
5 to 15
16 to 17
18+

 

[Fare-Cop]

Where is your court appearance on 7th Nov? PM if you prefer (the full name of the court please).

Whom precisely is instigating the claim?

How many passengers, in each age group:
5 to 15
16 to 17
18+

I'm rather confused by questions regarding the number of passengers involved

Having read & re-read the OPs original post this seems to be a case of just the OP travelling on a ticket that had advertised restrictions with which he did not fully comply.

I'm not sure why, but I think it was Yorkie who originally asked 'how many passengers were there' and I think this may have been misunderstood.

Unless there is evidence that an earlier Court hearing has been missed and this is an enforcement notice, I'm with Dave Newcastle's and Island's posts (#6 & #12) on this matter.

 

[38Cto15E]

paulcon
"A female ticket inspector then said she would need to charge me the full price of a ticket again! Even though I still had the 1st part of my ticket, receipt and reference number "
I assume all this has blown out of control because you refused to buy a ticket on the train when requested to do so by the female ticket inspector?

 

[SussexMan]

Paulcon. I'm not the right person to be helping you but I think the posters are saying they need some more information.

Your journey was on the 8th Aug 2011.
You said you appealed the "fine/penalty charge" a few days later.

Q1: How much, if any, did you pay on the train?

Q2: Were you given any paperwork, new ticket, penalty charge, unpaid fare notice, etc when you were on the train?

Q3: Did you receive a letter from the train company in between your journey and you appealing "a few days later".

You moved address in Jan 2012.

Q4: Did you receive ANY letters regarding this matter between your appeal letter and you moving?

Q5: Did you set up a mail re-direction when you moved address and if so for how long?

You received a debt collection notice of £546.50p

Q6: What does that letter say? You'll need to provide all the relevant details about the amount they are saying that you owe. It should be broken down. Has there already been a court order? The letter should explain it all and you need to help the people on here to help you by explaining what the letter says.

If there is anything else which might be relevant then tell us. Don't not mention something which might be relevant. If you answer the above, I think you may find that the forum members may be able to help you better.

 

[34D]

I'm rather confused by questions regarding the number of passengers involved

Having read & re-read the OPs original post this seems to be a case of just the OP travelling on a ticket that had advertised restrictions with which he did not fully comply.

A Skegness to london standard open single is £78 (today). If you're telling me that a civil court will find 'Admin fees' of 600% of the value of the debt as 'reasonable' then good luck with that.

OP, please return and answer our questions in detail.

 

[Greenback]

A Skegness to london standard open single is £78 (today). If you're telling me that a civil court will find 'Admin fees' of 600% of the value of the debt as 'reasonable' then good luck with that.

I thought that every time a lette ris unanswered fees are added? Admittedly, this is onyl the impression that I have gained from TV programems about bailiffs, but I don't think it is the case that the TOC have ruthlessly proceeded to court action without making efforts to obtain the fare, and it is quite possible that 600% of the ticket value is a reasonable reflection fo the costs incurred in trying to recover the fare that is owed in this case.

It sees to em on first reading of the original post, that Paulcon moved house and made no contact with the company to settle the matter. Once it became clear that letters were not being responded to, the matetr would have been put into the hands of a debt collection company who have investigated the matter and are now after payment, which will include their own charges and fees.

Mind you, I could be completely wrong, we do need more information otherwise we can only speculate, perhaps wrongly, which won't do much to help Paulcon at all.

 

[soil]

I'm not sure that the 'fees' are necessarily enforceable in court.

But anyway without the OP returning there's not much to say here.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure that the 'fees' are necessarily enforceable in court.

But anyway without the OP returning there's not much to say here.

That may be correct. Without knowing how this amount has come about it's impossible to say.

 

[TheEdge]

Without knowing more this would seem like two years ago this would have been easily solvable by just accepting your mistake.

But two years later and (probably) thinking by ignoring the issue and moving house its has gone away EC has thrown more resources at it to recoup the money and obviously has managed to track down the OP.

The fact two years later they have managed to track down the OP would suggest the issue has been passed on to a body with the rights to trawl through the electoral register (or similar lists/databases) which might explain the massive extra fees.

 

[soil]

My experience with debt collectors is that you can settle for the original sum or even less. The kind of people that get in trouble with debt collectors may not pay even after a court judgement, so they are likely to settle for much less than is being claimed, a bird in the hand being worth two in the bush so to speak.

This assumes of course that this is a civil debt....

 

[richw]

My experience with debt collectors is that you can settle for the original sum or even less. The kind of people that get in trouble with debt collectors may not pay even after a court judgement, so they are likely to settle for much less than is being claimed, a bird in the hand being worth two in the bush so to speak.

This assumes of course that this is a civil debt....

Most debt collection companies pay between 25% and 50% of the balance of the debt to purchase bad debt. They will then normal accept full and final settlement of offers over 50% of the balance as long as they haven't spent out on costs against you. I suspect as they have now found the OP they may have instigated a Trace on him, which would run up costs. A quick look on my bank statement at the tariff and charges document says if they require to trace me they will charge a minimum fee of £50.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I've often wondered why there needs to be two tickets per journey, would it not save the TOC to print it on one?

This has probably been covered many times on here mind...

 

[CallySleeper]

I've often wondered why there needs to be two tickets per journey, would it not save the TOC to print it on one?

This has probably been covered many times on here mind...

This thread you'll see that it's very much in the pipeline.

 

[Eagle]

I've often wondered why there needs to be two tickets per journey, would it not save the TOC to print it on one?

The problem has been that there's not enough space on the current ticket layout to fit reservation information on, so it has to go on a separate coupon.

As you can see, it is planned to revise the standard ticket design in such a way that there is room for reservation details.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The problem has been that there's not enough space on the current ticket layout to fit reservation information on, so it has to go on a separate coupon.

As you can see, it is planned to revise the standard ticket design in such a way that there is room for reservation details.

Makes sense and not before time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've often wondered why there needs to be two tickets per journey, . . . .

This is a reasonable question, and the responses above are useful pointers to future developments.

But I do want to highlight the distinction here between :

a) simply loosing one portion of the ticket (and there are countelss examples of passengers being shown discretion and sympathy when honestly declaring their inability to find one of their coupons when travelling) ,
and
b) multiple causes for debt collection proceedings pursuing an unpaid debt two years after the event (incl. non-payment during travel, non-payment on receipt of first correspondence, subsequent unanswered correspondence, moving house without effective mail redirection, debt collectors tracing the passenger).

This passenger's concern is not about tickets printing on 2 coupons.

 

[Puffing Devil]

This looks like a civil matter that's been brought to the county court as a debt, not a criminal prosecution. If the OP has the original documentation and correspondence, it should be OK to fight. There are additional steps that can be taken to give the OP more time to fight the case if he acts quickly enough.

If it is an unpaid Magistrate's Court fine, as this is the first he knows of it, swearing a statutory declaration must normally be done 21 days after he becomes aware of the case. He needs to visit a local court ASAP, explain he has just become aware of the matter and ask to make a declaration. If the court is some distance, a call first to set-up an appointment may be a good idea. Making the declaration resets the case back to the start. The TOC could still prosecute, this time the OP would be aware and could take action.

 

[38Cto15E]

I am prepared to give the OP the benefit of doubt, but so far he has not re-posted, also his username is rather unusual to say the least. Could it all be a wind up?