£33.4 million for next batch of ticket gates

[saismee]

I now forget where I read it, but earlier on I read another article that wasn't his that confirms that the gates are designed to "nudge" you into scanning/tapping even when open, by beeping at you if you fail to do so.

I think it was the IanVisits article as I also read this.

Absolutely, but it is potentially dangerous if it is not possible for someone (by which I mean "the smallest child likely to be out on their own") to do so.

The main danger with children is the parents. The amount of children I've seen be pulled through the barriers behind their parent and get trapped is heartbreaking. For gods sakes they are your CHILD. Take 5 seconds to read all of the stickers that say "Children under 5 must be carried", use the wide gate, or ask a member of staff for assistance. It is always upsetting to see a child burst into tears during what it often supposed to be a fun day out.

 

[Starmill]

I now forget where I read it, but earlier on I read another article that wasn't his that confirms that the gates are designed to "nudge" you into scanning/tapping even when open, by beeping at you if you fail to do so.

That's what I read too. But surely it's a complete non starter. Nobody would think to attempt to scan an eticket at an open gate. 99.99% of people wouldn't even know that this is an option already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main danger with children is the parents. The amount of children I've seen be pulled through the barriers behind their parent and get trapped is heartbreaking. For gods sakes they are your CHILD. Take 5 seconds to read all of the stickers that say "Children under 5 must be carried", use the wide gate, or ask a member of staff for assistance. It is always upsetting to see a child burst into tears during what it often supposed to be a fun day out.

Of course if they use the gate correctly there is now potential to have one stuck one side and one the other with them unable to talk to one another over/under the gate. Another issue.

This is not at all well thought through at all. It smacks of "look, we can use big fences and AI to avoid paying for the necessary staff with the appropriate training to deal with those who deliberately push through and jump over gates".

 

[saismee]

Nobody would think to attempt to scan an eticket at an open gate.

You underestimate people

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what I read too. But surely it's a complete non starter. Nobody would think to attempt to scan an eticket at an open gate. 99.99% of people wouldn't even know that this is an option already.

While I have been known to do it if I wanted a record to be on there of my arrival time in the event of a potentially awkward Delay Repay claim, I'm not even sure at present if it does actually record a scan if you do so when the gate is open!

 

[saismee]

Of course if they use the gate correctly there is now potential to have one stuck one side and one the other with them unable to talk to one another over/under the gate. Another issue.

This is not at all well thought through at all. It smacks of "look, we can use big fences and AI to avoid paying for the necessary staff with the appropriate training to deal with those who deliberately push through and jump over gates".

From what I read, it can detect the type of passenger or object going through so it won't shut on children, luggage, buggies, or wheelchair users (and anyone accompanying them).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You underestimate people

Or Japanese tourists? In Japan the gates are open by default and close on you (with some force) if a valid ticket was not presented before walking through.

 

[Starmill]

It does have a much simpler ticketing system to be fair.

It also has a formal system of gate passes for those who have a reason to pass through the gates without making a train journey. For example if you're a resident next to the station you're allowed to apply for one to use the shops inside or cross the station. Generally acceptance of tickets is far higher too, for breaks of journey, Interrail, even FIP coupons.

 

[saismee]

While I have been known to do it if I wanted a record to be on there of my arrival time in the event of a potentially awkward Delay Repay claim, I'm not even sure at present if it does actually record a scan if you do so when the gate is open!

They do record scans when open. The only thing that changes is that the paddles don't move. The narrow ones won't record a scan on the side with a red cross.

Or Japanese tourists? In Japan the gates are open by default and close on you (with some force) if a valid ticket was not presented before walking through.

Mostly British people.

 

[AlterEgo]

Mostly British people.

Correct. This happens to me 50% of the time.

 

[izvor]

Big beefy gates sound great but what happens when a ticketless person rocks up at one? At present, lone gateline person has no ticket machine and there is no excess fare window, so opens gates and points passenger to nearest ticket machine. Ticketless person legs it. What will change in this common scenario without increase in gateline personnel?

 

[saismee]

Correct. This happens to me 50% of the time.

If this is a joke it went well, well over my head. It is very much bedtime.

From what I read, it can detect the type of passenger or object going through so it won't shut on children, luggage, buggies, or wheelchair users (and anyone accompanying them).

I can't find a quote or attach a picture (I think the filetype is wrong but I don't know how to convert it on my phone), but this page has an image showing various passenger types and their identification by the gate.

https://www.cubic.com/transportation/products/fare-collection-solutions/fenx-fare-gate

Big beefy gates sound great but what happens when a ticketless person rocks up at one? At present, lone gateline person has no ticket machine and there is no excess fare window, so opens gates and points passenger to nearest ticket machine. Ticketless person legs it. What will change in this common scenario without increase in gateline personnel?

Same as what currently happens; the passenger is let out into the outside world until they come back to cause confrontation when trying to return. The difference now is that once they are out, they aren't coming back in.

 

[JonathanH]

Big beefy gates sound great but what happens when a ticketless person rocks up at one? At present, lone gateline person has no ticket machine and there is no excess fare window, so opens gates and points passenger to nearest ticket machine. Ticketless person legs it. What will change in this common scenario without increase in gateline personnel?

I agree that this is difficult, but it seems that there will be increased surveliance and data collection of people with no ticket, and it should prevent passengers entering the system at the relevant stations. Gatelines are generally about deterrent, and the perhaps naive hope is that it encourages less ticketless travel.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I wonder where they will put them at Worcester Foregate Street. As I am sure people know, two sets will be needed and the lifts are very close to the exit.

I could claim to arrive at Worcester from say Ledbury legitimately without a ticket. I could claim there was no way to buy my ticket. Perhaps the ticket buying facilities at Ledbury and other local stations have massively improved recently.

As with many such initiates I wonder how the ongoing cost will be met. Perhaps they will:

1. Staff the gates for very long hours. Expensive.
2. Staff the gates for short hours and use remote management. Cheaper but what about the waiting to get through because tickets are not recognised by the gate and the remote assistance is slow.
3. Staff the gates for short hours and leave them open most of the time. Cheapest but why spend the money on the gates.

 

[yorksrob]

This sounds like a bit of a waste of money to me. Will this be any more effective at deterrence than the blokes checking tickets today at Manchester Piccadilly ?

If they do increase revenue, will the railway be allowed to use it to the benefit of passengers, or will it be siphoned off back to the treasury, never to be seen again.

Plus, as others have said, I've never seen anyone jump over a barrier anyway, so is it even that prevalent (if it is, it suggests that the obesity crisis may be somewhat overblown).

I can think of a lot of things I'd rather a few million was spent on.

 

[Iskra]

Ticket barriers aren’t a silver bullet for fare evasion. People will just short fare and buy the cheapest applicable ticket that will work the barriers. I suspect that short faring is a much bigger problem (and cost in terms of revenue lost), and I’d be interested to know if there is a strategy for tackling that instead. It could probably be addressed without spending £33m too…

 

[styles]

Plus, as others have said, I've never seen anyone jump over a barrier anyway, so is it even that prevalent (if it is, it suggests that the obesity crisis may be somewhat overblown).

The most barrier jumping I've seen in the UK has been at TfL stations. Ultimately there aren't enough barrier staff to go chasing people who push through or jump them, and they're told not to in any case.

Unless you install old school vertical full height turnstiles, which won't work for e.g. wheelchair users, people will find a way through.

 

[RPI]

Nobody would think to attempt to scan an eticket at an open gate.

Believe me, anything is possible at a gate line..... It never cease to amaze me the dizzy things that I see at the gates, the amount of people who try and push the gates (not even maliciously, it's as if they wonder up to them puzzled and think they just push open) and yet also when the gates are all open, the amount of people who will try and put a ticket in rather than just walk through is quite amazing!

 

[saismee]

the amount of people who will try and put a ticket in rather than just walk through is quite amazing!

And then lose it to the ticket transporter because their ticket is wet and jammed it.

 

[Iskra]

Believe me, anything is possible at a gate line..... It never cease to amaze me the dizzy things that I see at the gates, the amount of people who try and push the gates (not even maliciously, it's as if they wonder up to them puzzled and think they just push open) and yet also when the gates are all open, the amount of people who will try and put a ticket in rather than just walk through is quite amazing!

In fairness, there are stations in other countries where the barriers will let you exit freely but require a ticket to enter (Milano Centrale).

 

[WillC]

Further dialling up of the 'them and us' mentality. I hate gates. They often do not work reliably, people (me) faff about getting phones out and ready immediately prior leading to congestion, popping out to pick up a sandwich can be problematic. Not saying fare evasion isn't a problem, but don't think the optics work well given the state of many ToC services.

 

[paulmch]

If they do increase revenue, will the railway be allowed to use it to the benefit of passengers, or will it be siphoned off back to the treasury, never to be seen again.

Either way I'd suggest that increased revenue is a good thing, either through more money to spend on nice things for the railway or simply just giving it a little bit more space to escape the dead hand of the Treasury!

 

[hwl]

The last paragraph is very interesting in being a recognition that a lot more stations will be gated. Presumably the value of having more robust gates and possibly getting to a stage where all urban stations are gated is being noted given ticketing changes.

I note that Stevenage and Worthing are already gated, so perhaps in line for the new more robust gatelines. If so, it would seem odd to just discard the existing gates rather than reinstalling them elsewhere.

Lots of the station are already gated or partially gated hence I suspect upgrading from partial to full gating and/or installation of more robust gates as part of a trial to prove the value (for future business cases) in moving from partial to full gating and/or more effective gates at existing station before wider roll out.
One of the more interesting stations on the list is Gipsy Hill, with the main entrance gated in 2008. But it has huge amounts of ticket less travel because of people tail gating, pushing through barriers and most significantly using the ungated entrance on platform 1 (has readers but not gates).
Large numbers of the ticketless are school children who enter with Zip Cards at LO stations and exit at Gipsy Hill P1 entrance (no LO services at Gipsy Hill) in the morning.
The CCTV set up at Gipsy Hill is excellent hence they already probably have a very good idea of what evasion levels and cases are so after upgrades they can estimate how many more are paying and how many have given up on using the station.

If all the non-fare payers at Gipsy Hill paid up (which they won't!) the incremental revenue would pay of the gating improvements in less than a year. HMT and DfT want speedy RoI hence the need to see how much extra income is delivered in practice.

 

[81A]

At last, Worcester!

Probably can expect an uptick in the number of Worcestershire Parkway to Shrub hill/Foregate St. sales... Every time I have seen RPIs between Homeybourne and Worcester, they have seemed to be catching a large number of people (with others hiding out in toilets, etc).

Although at least short faring leaves more of a trail, allowing lost revenue to be recovered more easily when they are caught.

 

[Oldgaloot]

I've posted a number of times on the thread about SWR trying to remove pedestrian access to Guildford station bridge and it's occurred to me that an AI operated camera could capture an image of a pedestrian accessing the station on one side and have it available for viewing (if necessary) by gate staff on the other. Anyone getting off a train wouldn't be photographed.

I see this morning that AI is being proposed as a solution for tailgating with the new gates. I don't know how AI actually works in a situation such as this and appreciate once you begin taking images of people there are data protection issues, but I've seen signs warning that images are being captured for public safety and would have thought automatic deletion after a certain period would deal with the problem.

But while AI may block further movement of a tailgater, for example, it won't deal with someone who turns nasty when challenged and then we're looking at BTP or private security as we should be doing at Guildford and many other stations. It's lovely to think AI will stop fare evasion but harder to see how. Robocop?

 

[sprunt]

It also concerns me that if the gates are designed to encourage scanning even when open that that may lead to de facto compostage (mandatory scanning before boarding and on exit) and thus the end of split ticketing.

If retailers continued to sell split tickets with an itinerary but there were a condition requiring them all to be scanned, wouldn't that be a slam dunk for an unfair contractual term? "Here are your tickets, but don't forget there's a term that makes them unusable" would never stand up in court, surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If retailers continued to sell split tickets with an itinerary but there were a condition requiring them all to be scanned, wouldn't that be a slam dunk for an unfair contractual term? "Here are your tickets, but don't forget there's a term that makes them unusable" would never stand up in court, surely?

I don't think anyone would continue to sell tickets that were not legal to use!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Market Harborough will be interesting to see considering it has multiple exit points from the London bound platform into the car park, will those exits be closed up and replaced with a new side exit building (with remotely monitored gateline) with the main entrance being in the main building?

It will obviously need to retain access both from the station building and car park.

On the car park side, there is no suitable under cover space so will they be out in the open or will a tin shed be thrown up?

In the main building, I guess they'll have to go in the booking hall as the doorway/tunnel area is quite constricted.

Hopefully the local user group will be consulted

 

[SephenWorceste]

Probably can expect an uptick in the number of Worcestershire Parkway to Shrub hill/Foregate St. sales... Every time I have seen RPIs between Homeybourne and Worcester, they have seemed to be catching a large number of people (with others hiding out in toilets, etc).

Although at least short faring leaves more of a trail, allowing lost revenue to be recovered more easily when they are caught.

How about a Worcester Shrubhill to Worcester Foregate Street ticket. Hide in the toilets from anywhere north of Oxford.

Saying this if caught just pay. There are so few ways to buy at some of the stations after Oxford through to Hereford.

 

[Benjwri]

But while AI may block further movement of a tailgater, for example, it won't deal with someone who turns nasty when challenged and then we're looking at BTP or private security as we should be doing at Guildford and many other stations. It's lovely to think AI will stop fare evasion but harder to see how. Robocop?

Presumably the idea is AI can detect the tailgater, collection identifying information and flag it for investigation, potentially allowing collation of their travelling habits so the times they pass through can be used to revenue team/BTP to stop them.

Once you have the data it’s no different to what TfL do with card data. You don’t need AI just to stop tailgaters.