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£10bn a year for 10 years

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SoloGemini

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In a world where GBR/Network Rail are funded to the tune of £10 billion a year for the next decade, what do you think could be achieved in terms of enhancement in electrification, signalling, rolling stock, double/quadruple tracking, station upgrades and remodellings, station and line reopenings, new curves/chords, freight etc for the whole British railway network. Would love to see what some of you think could be possible.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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8 Jan 2009
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@SoloGemini. Welcome to the forum. We did actually have a similar thread to this one, only a few weeks ago. Higher annual budget (= £25 bln per annum) but a shorter timeframe (= 5 years). Link to thread below...

 

Class15

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North London or Mildmay line
Here would be my plans:

1. Complete HS2 in full.
2. Electrification of Didcot-Oxford, Chippenham-Bristol, Thames Valley branches, Felixstowe, freight ‘missing links’ around Willesden, Windermere, Nuneaton-Birmingham, etc etc
3. Upgrade of parts of the GEML to 4 tracks. Shenfield-Witham for example.
4. Remodelling of numerous junctions on the North and South London lines to add capacity.
5. Doubling of the Felixstowe branch.
 

HSTEd

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I've actually changed my position somewhat since the last time I got involved in one of these discussions.

Firstly, I'd probably want to burn ~£25-30bn to get fleet homogenisation, level boarding and eliminate pure diesel operations. Total fleet replacement of all non level boarding rolling stock, about 14500 vehicles in total.
To do that in ten years would mean contracting with manufacturers abroad (probably including CRRC et al), nevertheless it should be possible to homogenise the fleet down to four or five classes of train.

A total fleet replacement would also provide the opportunity to impose a single multiple working standard to be used by everything - probably based on the ECP braking system developed in the US, which supports AAR messages. Probably use tightlock type couplings to enable coupling homogenisation. As an added bonus that would save the state a couple billion pounds a year in leasing related charges since the entire fleet would be owned outright.

Secondly, I'd want to fit ECP braking to all freight rolling stock as well as order an electrodiesel Class 66 replacement, leveraging advanced (and expensive) technologies to get the necessary performance in the given weight package. Then buy enough to essentially dispense with the bulk of the freight operating fleet, again using coupling and standards homogenisation to our advantage. Not sure how much but lets call it £1-2bn on that, noone seems to be able to give a good estimate on the size of the freight rolling stock fleet. Probably would have to replace a lot of the old buffers stock to get AAR compatible couplings.

This would leave us with a fleet where we've cut the training burden on traction dramatically, created an environment where any combination of rail vehicles on the system can operate as a block train, potentially using push pull and where leasing charges and complex trackside systems like hotbox detectors can be dispensed with. Additionally all trains would have onboard integrity protection, allowing most trackside train detection to go.

Next, something like £40-50bn on a south coast shinkansen system as I've previously talked about (London-Brighton->Bournemouth), allowing it to displace a lot of very expensive, very congested railway on the southern system.
That leaves us with something like £20 ish billion, which would probably be used to accelerate ETCS (Level 2 Hybrid!) and ATO deployment and convert a few thousand kilometres of track to Porr system slab track.
Long term the objective would be to make GoA 3 the standard, with remaining train crew likely operating buffet facilities on many trains.

Keeping the unions on board would be critical as in the long run this effort is likely to lead to significant headcount reductions (albeit with a short term increase). Hopefully an arrangement based on attrition and voluntary redundancy could be arranged. Probably would need a few billion pounds to help fund such arrangements.
 

brad465

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Taunton or Kent
I'd attempt the following:

-Takeover the Dartmouth Steam railway, East Somerset railway and West Somerset railway in full for national rail with associated upgrades.
- Double track the remainder of the West of England mainline, upgrade service frequency for metro operations and reopen branches to Seaton and Lyme Regis (especially as these areas have road congestion problems).
-Complete the rest of the GWML electrification and extend to Exeter via both Westbury and Bristol, possibly beyond if demand is strong enough.
-Reopen Okehampton-Bere Alston and upgrade speed and capacity of Cornish branches (that isn't already being done).
-Quadruple Didcot-Swindon, grade separate Bassett jct, Double track Melksham branch.

-Electrify East-West rail.
-Double track rest of Cotswold line (except Ledbury tunnel which is probably too much).
-Electrify Bristol Parkway to Birmingham and Derby.
-Double track as much of Highland mainline as possible.
-Line speed increase on Settle-Carlisle from 60 to 90mph where geometry allows.

If there's any money left, some other schemes of good value I'm not aware of.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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22 Feb 2011
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21,923
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Mold, Clwyd
In a world where GBR/Network Rail are funded to the tune of £10 billion a year for the next decade, what do you think could be achieved in terms of enhancement in electrification, signalling, rolling stock, double/quadruple tracking, station upgrades and remodellings, station and line reopenings, new curves/chords, freight etc for the whole British railway network. Would love to see what some of you think could be possible.
I don't know quite where your £10 billion comes from but that sum simply goes on keeping the current network going, maybe with a few life-expiry renewals.
In the last two 5-year control periods for Network Rail, major (and not so major) enhancements are funded separately at the pleasure of the government of the day.
And Covid took away any semblance of a surplus, and the railway has not fully recovered.
We've only just started CP7 (in April), so the 5-year NR budget is already fixed until 2029.
Not to mention HS2 where construction costs are out of control.
 
Last edited:

fishwomp

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5 Jan 2020
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milton keynes
Here would be my plans:

1. Complete HS2 in full.
2. Electrification of Didcot-Oxford, Chippenham-Bristol, Thames Valley branches, Felixstowe, freight ‘missing links’ around Willesden, Windermere, Nuneaton-Birmingham, etc etc
3. Upgrade of parts of the GEML to 4 tracks. Shenfield-Witham for example.
4. Remodelling of numerous junctions on the North and South London lines to add capacity.
5. Doubling of the Felixstowe branch.
Nice try, but you ran out of money on item 1. Shame about the other ideas!
 

Sad Sprinter

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5 Jun 2017
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3,186
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Way on down South London town
I've actually changed my position somewhat since the last time I got involved in one of these discussions.

Firstly, I'd probably want to burn ~£25-30bn to get fleet homogenisation, level boarding and eliminate pure diesel operations. Total fleet replacement of all non level boarding rolling stock, about 14500 vehicles in total.
To do that in ten years would mean contracting with manufacturers abroad (probably including CRRC et al), nevertheless it should be possible to homogenise the fleet down to four or five classes of train.

A total fleet replacement would also provide the opportunity to impose a single multiple working standard to be used by everything - probably based on the ECP braking system developed in the US, which supports AAR messages. Probably use tightlock type couplings to enable coupling homogenisation. As an added bonus that would save the state a couple billion pounds a year in leasing related charges since the entire fleet would be owned outright.

Secondly, I'd want to fit ECP braking to all freight rolling stock as well as order an electrodiesel Class 66 replacement, leveraging advanced (and expensive) technologies to get the necessary performance in the given weight package. Then buy enough to essentially dispense with the bulk of the freight operating fleet, again using coupling and standards homogenisation to our advantage. Not sure how much but lets call it £1-2bn on that, noone seems to be able to give a good estimate on the size of the freight rolling stock fleet. Probably would have to replace a lot of the old buffers stock to get AAR compatible couplings.

This would leave us with a fleet where we've cut the training burden on traction dramatically, created an environment where any combination of rail vehicles on the system can operate as a block train, potentially using push pull and where leasing charges and complex trackside systems like hotbox detectors can be dispensed with. Additionally all trains would have onboard integrity protection, allowing most trackside train detection to go.

Next, something like £40-50bn on a south coast shinkansen system as I've previously talked about (London-Brighton->Bournemouth), allowing it to displace a lot of very expensive, very congested railway on the southern system.
That leaves us with something like £20 ish billion, which would probably be used to accelerate ETCS (Level 2 Hybrid!) and ATO deployment and convert a few thousand kilometres of track to Porr system slab track.
Long term the objective would be to make GoA 3 the standard, with remaining train crew likely operating buffet facilities on many trains.

Keeping the unions on board would be critical as in the long run this effort is likely to lead to significant headcount reductions (albeit with a short term increase). Hopefully an arrangement based on attrition and voluntary redundancy could be arranged. Probably would need a few billion pounds to help fund such arrangements.

South Coast Shinkansen or South Coast High speed is an interesting topic in general. It certainly was taken seriously in the golden age of London Reconcetions when it was thought London would need a “new main line every 10 years”.

My ideal way would be to:

Have constructed HS1 as far as Heathrow, running Javelin trains via an underground through station at Kings Cross

Built HS2 via the M40, with a high speed spur along the M3 to Basingstoke (and a branch to connect onto the mainline near Woking)

You could then have direct Kent to Hampshire trains via Heathrow and an interchange station at Heathrow for HS2 for passengers coming from the South West
 

GRALISTAIR

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11 Apr 2012
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10,510
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Preston Lancs
In a world where GBR/Network Rail are funded to the tune of £10 billion a year for the next decade, what do you think could be achieved in terms of enhancement in electrification, signalling, rolling stock, double/quadruple tracking, station upgrades and remodellings, station and line reopenings, new curves/chords, freight etc for the whole British railway network. Would love to see what some of you think could be possible.
Welcome to the forum. Great question.
 

HSTEd

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Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,340
South Coast Shinkansen or South Coast High speed is an interesting topic in general. It certainly was taken seriously in the golden age of London Reconcetions when it was thought London would need a “new main line every 10 years”.

My ideal way would be to:

Have constructed HS1 as far as Heathrow, running Javelin trains via an underground through station at Kings Cross

Built HS2 via the M40, with a high speed spur along the M3 to Basingstoke (and a branch to connect onto the mainline near Woking)

You could then have direct Kent to Hampshire trains via Heathrow and an interchange station at Heathrow for HS2 for passengers coming from the South West
I honestly prefer to just head straight south out of London to Brighton (via Clapham Junction and Gatwick, probably), then head west along the coast.
Even a stopping shinkansen train would beat the conventional railway for all journeys other than London-Southampton, and that would be pretty much a dead heat.

15 trains per hour Bournemouth-London or something of that nature. London-Clapham Junction-Gatwick-Brighton-Littlehampton-Portsmouth-Southmampton-Bournemouth.
Removes a large part of the traffic off multiple lines.
 

Class15

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30 Dec 2021
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4,154
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North London or Mildmay line
I honestly prefer to just head straight south out of London to Brighton (via Clapham Junction and Gatwick, probably), then head west along the coast.
Even a stopping shinkansen train would beat the conventional railway for all journeys other than London-Southampton, and that would be pretty much a dead heat.

15 trains per hour Bournemouth-London or something of that nature. London-Clapham Junction-Gatwick-Brighton-Littlehampton-Portsmouth-Southmampton-Bournemouth.
Removes a large part of the traffic off multiple lines.
Absolutely amazing idea, although would 15tph be slightly overkill? 10 might be reasonable maybe? Or at least 15 to Brighton and 10 onwards with 5 only going to Brighton or something. I doubt you could fill 15tph between Brighton and Southampton?
 

HSTEd

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Absolutely amazing idea, although would 15tph be slightly overkill? 10 might be reasonable maybe? Or at least 15 to Brighton and 10 onwards with 5 only going to Brighton or something. I doubt you could fill 15tph between Brighton and Southampton?
15 trains per hour, 16 hours per day, about 1100 seats per trainset. That's 264,000 seats per direction per day. Around ~96 million. Which is an awful lot. Call it 50 million when allowing for empty seats.
However, I think if you take over most of the long distance traffic on the Brighton Main Line, South West Main Line and associated lines, as well as create an effective metro on the coast, you would take a big chunk of that up prety rapidly.

There's not far off 3 million passengers per direction from Gatwick to London terminals alone.

Once you've built the line you might as well fill it.
 
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