Avanti take needless announcements to a new level

Russel said:

Shops are also plagued by theft, but they don't go out of their way to create a hostile atmosphere towards the majority of their customers, who are honest and law abiding...

I've never heard the security guard in my local Tesco making endless PA announcements reminding everyone that they must pay for every item they put in their basket before leaving the store.

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That's because shops are customer focused and simply deal with shoplifters as and when they arise (often). They don't feel the need to pander to a certain sort of person who takes a voyeuristic pleasure in consequences or justice.

A short announcement should be sufficient:

"Passengers please ensure that you have a valid ticket for this particular train, excess charges could apply. Thanks for your co operation" "This train may get busy during its journey. Please don't prevent other passengers from having a seat by using it for your bag. Thanks for your co operation" is all that's needed.

Not a silly sermon about bags not being human beings, and that as we're on public transport we must get used to other people sitting next to us. We know that. We don't need to be spoken to as if we're a bunch of naughty 5 year olds.

Nor do we need other threatening and hostile announcements.

Russel said:

Shops are also plagued by theft, but they don't go out of their way to create a hostile atmosphere towards the majority of their customers, who are honest and law abiding...

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The recent changes to self service many are introducing do, like showing a recording of your face as you use the checkout, or requiring you to scan a receipt to leave the shop.

Sprinter107 said:

A short announcement should be sufficient. "Passengers please ensure that you have a valid ticket for this particular train, excess charges could apply. Thanks for your co operation" "This train may get busy during its journey. Please dont prevent other passengers from having a seat by using it for your bag. Thanks for your co operation" is all thats needed. Not a silly surmon about bags not being human beings, and that as we're on public transport we must get used to other people sitting next to us. We know that. We dont need to be spoken to as if we're a bunch of naughty 5 year olds.
Nor do we need other threatening and hostile announcements.

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You are applying your own filter to this though Sprinter107. You do not need such announcements. However, many of the public travelling with you do need such announcement, as evidenced by the freeloaders and grifters who use the railway.

mmh said:

The recent changes to self service many are introducing do, like showing a recording of your face as you use the checkout, or requiring you to scan a receipt to leave the shop.

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I agree but I am not made to feel that I have to prove my innocence in a shop.
By rail, and it is not deliberate, I feel like I am guilty until I prove my innocence (with my ticket!)
That could be more about me, seeing a policeman makes me feel guilty

JamieL said:

You are applying your own filter to this though Sprinter107. You do not need such announcements. However, many of the public travelling with you do need such announcement, as evidenced by the freeloaders and grifters who use the railway.

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No, I dont think so. If someone wishes to evade their fare they will, no matter how many or how long the announcements. Ive been on the railway for many many years, all roles customer facing, and theres not much I havent seen. The majority of passengers are fine, and they do not need announcements like that.

Talking of hyperverbosity, I'm reminded of a notice I saw on a bus many years ago: "Passengers desirous of alighting are respectfully requested to indicate their intention by means of the bell".

A (non-transport) example from a job where I had to (try to!) persuade people to use simple English.

"In common with all local authorities, (name of a county council) has a statutory duty to..."

You wouldn't believe the pushback on my translation of that to simply "By law we must..."

Unfortunately some people seem to measure their output on number of words, and some enjoy being pompous!

JamieL said:

You are applying your own filter to this though Sprinter107. You do not need such announcements. However, many of the public travelling with you do need such announcement, as evidenced by the freeloaders and grifters who use the railway.

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Have you considered that the "freeloaders and grifters" are not going to be deterred by an announcement. They already know what they're doing...

It is just more pointless "ear spam".

AlterEgo said:

It also makes anyone not entirely sure about their ticket nervous about consequences. What should be done is quite simply to charge people up. That happens in public too. I don't want to hear a five minute diatribe about ticket restrictions and how the guard will take pleasure in meting out punishment, I've got the right ticket, just deal with those people properly as and when and let me zone out please. That's how it happens in other civilised countries.

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^^^ This!!!

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JamieL said:

I have absolutely no problem at all with this approach. The railway is plagued by freeloaders and grifters. Nobody who has purchased an appropriate ticket and has acted in a fair and honest way should be even slightly bothered by the above.

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We’ll have to agree to differ. I travel every week with Grand Central, on advances, which must equate to a four-figure sum spent with them each year. I expect to be welcomed on board, not ranted at.

Russel said:

Shops are also plagued by theft, but they don't go out of their way to create a hostile atmosphere towards the majority of their customers, who are honest and law abiding...

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Other than the supermarkets who make you scan your receipt to get out of the place?

Falcon1200 said:

Other than the supermarkets who make you scan your receipt to get out of the place?

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Nothing hostile about that. On the railway that's just a ticket barrier.

AlterEgo said:

Nothing hostile about that.

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Treating every customer as a suspected shoplifter? I disagree!

Sprinter107 said:

No, I dont think so. If someone wishes to evade their fare they will, no matter how many or how long the announcements. Ive been on the railway for many many years, all roles customer facing, and theres not much I havent seen. The majority of passengers are fine, and they do not need announcements like that.

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Point well made, and I'm in full agreement. The constant mantra of penalties and punishments repeated ad nauseam after every station call makes for a generally unpleasant atmosphere on board. I strongly suspect that law-abiding but nervous passengers actually feel less safe, imagining that they are surrounded by criminals and thugs during every journey.

Falcon1200 said:

Treating every customer as a suspected shoplifter? I disagree!

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I suppose being asked for your ticket is offensive too.

Bristol LHS said:

We’ll have to agree to differ. I travel every week with Grand Central, on advances, which must equate to a four-figure sum spent with them each year. I expect to be welcomed on board, not ranted at.

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May I offer an alternative view? You spend a four figure sum on rail journeys. If you think about it, that is a heavily subsidised price. The cost of running the railway - ranging from maintenance, running costs, new builds, rolling stock upgrades and procurement and so much more - you can add at least one zero and probably more onto what your ticket should actually cost. But the taxpayer considers it worthwhile to subsidise your journey because of the economic value it adds by enabling your movement. It prioritises your journey over hospitals, nurses, military and more. Yet it also has to increase the rail subsidy to fund the grifters and freeloaders. Which means less public money for things that are actually valuable.

So, whilst you expect to be welcomed, you should at least consider the railway and public really need to do their upmost to reduce how much subsidy your ticket requires. If that means sitting through an announcement or two then it really isn't so bad. Turn your anger onto the grifters, not the staff.

Falcon1200 said:

Other than the supermarkets who make you scan your receipt to get out of the place?

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That’s not really equivalent, is it, though? No supermarket in the country makes people listen to a lecture on entering the shop about how people mustn’t leave without paying, how shoplifting is a criminal offence, how abusing staff is a criminal offence and you could be prosecuted, how you mustn’t get things down from the high shelves yourself, etc. These topics are dealt with by the store teams as and when they arise.

There is a culture on the railway in this country of dumping every piece of information anyone might possibly want to know, right at the start of the journey and at multiple intervals throughout. This leads to information overload because important information (train destination, departure time, next stop) carries the same weight and is mixed up with information that might only become relevant at some point in future (keep your drink in your bag until you’re back at your seat; do not abuse our staff, we have body worn cameras and lawyers; don’t put your feet/luggage on the seats; just because the train has stopped we might not be at a station; don’t play music out loud or take phone calls if you’re in the quiet carriage; by the way if you have the wrong ticket we’ll charge you £100+ or prosecute you.)

The result is minute after minute of noise which makes people turn off and creates the impression of a hostile environment that treats everyone like children, and this is before we even consider the attitude of a small minority of staff that seems to enjoy patronising customers.

Other countries such as Switzerland, Austria, Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, etc. manage to do announcements in 2, 3, or even 4 languages in the time it takes us to do announcements in 1. They employ progressive disclosure and keep automatic announcements to a minimum of the train number/destination and principal calling points, next stop, and (if relevant) that the restaurant or particular facilities are open. If someone needs to be told (eg) don’t put your luggage on the seats or not to play music in the quiet carriage, the train crew will set them right.

And there’s none of this “station stop” nonsense. Instead if the train stops between stations, they make an announcement to say “we are stopped on the open track/we are not calling here, please don’t try to open the doors.” There is no need to be pedantic in advance in anticipation there might be someone who’s never been on a train before and might not realise that trains sometimes stop between stations. They will learn soon enough.

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JamieL said:

So, whilst you expect to be welcomed, you should at least consider the railway and public really need to do their upmost to reduce how much subsidy your ticket requires. If that means sitting through an announcement or two then it really isn't so bad. Turn your anger onto the grifters, not the staff.

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I do not agree with this. Under what circumstance would someone determined to dodge their fare have a change of heart and think “oh no, a recorded announcement told me I could get fined, I’d better get off and buy a valid ticket”?

JamieL said:

May I offer an alternative view? You spend a four figure sum on rail journeys. If you think about it, that is a heavily subsidised price. The cost of running the railway - ranging from maintenance, running costs, new builds, rolling stock upgrades and procurement and so much more - you can add at least one zero and probably more onto what your ticket should actually cost. But the taxpayer considers it worthwhile to subsidise your journey because of the economic value it adds by enabling your movement. It prioritises your journey over hospitals, nurses, military and more. Yet it also has to increase the rail subsidy to fund the grifters and freeloaders. Which means less public money for things that are actually valuable.

So, whilst you expect to be welcomed, you should at least consider the railway and public really need to do their upmost to reduce how much subsidy your ticket requires. If that means sitting through an announcement or two then it really isn't so bad. Turn your anger onto the grifters, not the staff.

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Anyone who is intent on fare evading will do so. You can announce until you are blue in the face, it will make not a scrap of difference. The majority of passengers are fine. Why should the majority sit thro hostile and offensive announcements, when they wont work. In my experience a amiable conductor will get better results than a hostile one.
How many times have you heard a hostile announcement at the beginning of a journey, and the conductor still comes across fare evaders ? They dont work for a determined fare evader.

Falcon1200 said:

Other than the supermarkets who make you scan your receipt to get out of the place?

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Nothing intrusive about that though, it's the equivalent of a railway ticket check, just minus the attitude, accusations and threats.

JamieL said:

May I offer an alternative view? You spend a four figure sum on rail journeys. If you think about it, that is a heavily subsidised price. The cost of running the railway - ranging from maintenance, running costs, new builds, rolling stock upgrades and procurement and so much more - you can add at least one zero and probably more onto what your ticket should actually cost. But the taxpayer considers it worthwhile to subsidise your journey because of the economic value it adds by enabling your movement. It prioritises your journey over hospitals, nurses, military and more. Yet it also has to increase the rail subsidy to fund the grifters and freeloaders. Which means less public money for things that are actually valuable.

So, whilst you expect to be welcomed, you should at least consider the railway and public really need to do their upmost to reduce how much subsidy your ticket requires. If that means sitting through an announcement or two then it really isn't so bad. Turn your anger onto the grifters, not the staff.

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A guard who walks the train and charges people without the proper ticket does exactly this. There is no need for sarcastic or hyperbolic announcements. Everyone thinks they should get their ticket checked but very few people think they deserve to be speculatively patronised.

AlterEgo said:

A guard who walks the train and charges people without the proper ticket does exactly this. There is no need for sarcastic or hyperbolic announcements. Everyone thinks they should get their ticket checked but very few people think they deserve to be speculatively patronised.

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Perfectly said.

JamieL said:

So, whilst you expect to be welcomed, you should at least consider the railway and public really need to do their upmost to reduce how much subsidy your ticket requires. If that means sitting through an announcement or two then it really isn't so bad. Turn your anger onto the grifters, not the staff.

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"An announcement or two"? Can I travel on your line please? On SWR (at least until recently), you'd have sat through three or more before leaving Waterloo, and another three or four by Clapham Junction. On metro services with frequent stops, they felt almost continuous, being played in succession after each station call.

"Passengers should be aware that this station may have no or only partial tactile paving at the platform edge".

So far this week I've heard this announcement at two stations where the tactile paving is complete for the entire length of both platforms.

TPE guard continually and sarcastically announcing we need to move forward from the rear carriage to alight at Sheffield. Queue everyone rushing forward and then all the doors opened in the rear coach anyway. Very strange.

MalaiseForever said:

TPE guard continually and sarcastically announcing we need to move forward from the rear carriage to alight at Sheffield. Queue everyone rushing forward and then all the doors opened in the rear coach anyway. Very strange.

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Let me guess, 2x185 from the south arriving in P1 via the centre road and the crossover. Never quite worked that one out.

AlterEgo said:

A guard who walks the train and charges people without the proper ticket does exactly this. There is no need for sarcastic or hyperbolic announcements. Everyone thinks they should get their ticket checked but very few people think they deserve to be speculatively patronised.

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This isn't a complete solution. First, there are many types of grifter and some will be deterred by an announcement and either moving to the right part of the train, alight (if the announcement is made before departure) or buy a ticket. Second, guards can be busy or lazy and might not get through the whole train in a timely manner to do appropriate ticket checks, so at least an announcement puts grifters on edge even if they are not dealt with. Third, an announcement like the on outlined (come to Coach B) cuts an argument from the grifter that they were waiting for the guard to come around.

How many trains have you worked ? You really dont seem to have any idea. If you really think an announcement will deter a fare evader youre very naive. Ive been on the railway many years, and come across hundreds of fare evaders directly or indirectly. You really seem to have no idea. There is no place for hostile and threatening announcements

Yep! Do the journey relatively often but obviously never been in the rear coach before so caught me off guard.

D1537 said:

Let me guess, 2x185 from the south arriving in P1 via the centre road and the crossover. Never quite worked that one out.

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JamieL said:

This isn't a complete solution. First, there are many types of grifter and some will be deterred by an announcement and either moving to the right part of the train, alight (if the announcement is made before departure) or buy a ticket. Second, guards can be busy or lazy and might not get through the whole train in a timely manner to do appropriate ticket checks, so at least an announcement puts grifters on edge even if they are not dealt with. Third, an announcement like the on outlined (come to Coach B) cuts an argument from the grifter that they were waiting for the guard to come around.

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This is really divorced from the reality of how things actually work on the ground. If it was that easy, everyone would be as sarcastic and passive aggressive as the guard in this example. But aside from it not being conducive to a pleasant travelling atmosphere, it's also just unnecessary to word any announcement like this (and to make things up like "business train"). It's Grand Central. The guard will absolutely be moving through the train because they have a buy on board policy.

D1537 said:

Let me guess, 2x185 from the south arriving in P1 via the centre road and the crossover. Never quite worked that one out.

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A 2xClass 185 formation really has to be ‘tucked’ between two signals at the Platform 1B. I have seen such trains stop just slightly ‘short’ and the Guard then having to restrict door opening in the rear set. The same has to happen at Meadowhall and some other stations towards Cleethorpes anyway.