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Has the railway got the right balance to Health & Safety?

sh24

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After a totally unrelated to the railway H&S meeting where we were discussing emergency lighting. It's mandatory under UK law to have independent battery powered emergency lighting in any commercial premises.

That lead me to ponder how the railway decides that GSM-R doesn't require an independent power source but we should shout and wave at passengers who place their foot on a platform yellow line... H&S culture might not be quite right.
 
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35B

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After a totally unrelated to the railway H&S meeting where we were discussing emergency lighting. It's mandatory under UK law to have independent battery powered emergency lighting in any commercial premises. That lead me to ponder how the railway decides that GSM-R doesn't require an independent power source but we should shout and wave at passengers who place their foot on a platform yellow line... H&S culture might not be quite right.
Or perhaps more relevant, that the same radios that don't have an independent power source can be the sole form of emergency communication when signal post telephones are removed.

System thinking does seem to be missing
 

Horizon22

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Or perhaps more relevant, that the same radios that don't have an independent power source can be the sole form of emergency communication when signal post telephones are removed.

System thinking does seem to be missing

I am surprised because when OHLE is switched off / damaged modern rolling stock will “load-shed” and one of the last things to go is GSMR which can last for maybe an hour.
 

sharpener

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Or perhaps more relevant, that the same radios that don't have an independent power source can be the sole form of emergency communication when signal post telephones are removed.

And when the track clips don't work as the track circuits have been replaced with axle counters.

How do the on-train crew know which is the case? Deploying the clips is not without personal risk, particularly when they will not be effective.

I am surprised because when OHLE is switched off / damaged modern rolling stock will “load-shed” and one of the last things to go is GSMR which can last for maybe an hour.

From other posts that depends on the trains cabling being intact between the cabs and the batteries in a different vehicle. And on the management computer prioritising the loads correctly. Neither of which is a given after a crash or derailment.
 

Recessio

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In a previous job I had to have both a CB radio and a car phone installed in my vehicle for emergencies, both of which had their own internal batteries (and they would also trickle charge off of the car's battery).

I'm astonished to hear that the GSM-R units don't appear to have their own internal battery? Even something as small as a mobile phone battery?
 

Horizon22

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And when the track clips don't work as the track circuits have been replaced with axle counters.

How do the on-train crew know which is the case? Deploying the clips is not without personal risk, particularly when they will not be effective.

I would expect them to know as part of their route knowledge which areas have axle counters. This would no doubt be briefed out when there was such a change.
 

driver9000

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And when the track clips don't work as the track circuits have been replaced with axle counters.

How do the on-train crew know which is the case? Deploying the clips is not without personal risk, particularly when they will not be effective.

Knowing which type of signalling and train detection system is in operation is part of the route knowledge.
 

68000

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After a totally unrelated to the railway H&S meeting where we were discussing emergency lighting. It's mandatory under UK law to have independent battery powered emergency lighting in any commercial premises. That lead me to ponder how the railway decides that GSM-R doesn't require an independent power source but we should shout and wave at passengers who place their foot on a platform yellow line... H&S culture might not be quite right.
GSM-R was designed with backup batteries to provide emergency power to GSM-R in circumstances such as this. It was called a 'UPS' back in the days of early GSM-R rollout and the batteries had to be replaced every five years (I think) / when the battery test indicated failure. I don't know why they were not fitted or if fitted why they did not work.
 
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Archvile

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Just a gentle reminder that the Rule Book does not differentiate between track circuit and axle counters regarding the use of TCOCs when not able to contact the Signaller.

They MUST be placed down regardless.

The logic is that in a stressful situation, recalling the detection type is not reliable enough to decide whether to do so or not.
 

Harpo

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Or perhaps more relevant, that the same radios that don't have an independent power source can be the sole form of emergency communication when signal post telephones are removed.

System thinking does seem to be missing
Somewhere in the past, there will have been a detailed risk assessment around SPT removal, post-GSMR. It will be interesting to see if RAIB dig into that to understand the assumptions it made, and whether any of those failed to become embedded in rolling stock standards.
 
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brad465

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This I think is one of those areas where it's lacking on one side but overdone on another, which you can probably apply to just about any industry.
 

HSTEd

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The railway does seem to have ended up with odd incongruities in its safety approach, with some things being given backups and positive control, but other things not. I assume this is largely because of historical factors.

For example, the Caledonian sleeper set that had that overrun incident on approach to Edinburgh in 2020 had a lever in the wrong position that essentially disabled the continuous train brake, the position of which could not be determined from the cab or whilst the train was moving. There was also no other means to activate the main train brake from the cab, despite the stock being fitted with a Class 92 compatible 61-way control jumper (apparently) fitted with pins for TDM multiple-unit control.

A position switch would have prevented that incident, as would have fitting the stock to respond to electrical control signals from the locomotive. Either implementation would have cost less than many of the systems on the railway that have very carefully considered backups and proving arrangements. Instead the railway, in this case, relied on procedural controls by fallible human beings. Just seems odd to me.
 
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Belperpete

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The railway does seem to have ended up with odd incongruities in its safety approach, with some things being given backups and positive control, but other things not. I assume this is largely because of historical factors.

For example, the Caledonian sleeper set that had that overrun incident on approach to Edinburgh in 2020 had a lever in the wrong position that essentially disabled the continuous train brake, the position of which could not be determined from the cab or whilst the train was moving. There was also no other means to activate the main train brake from the cab, despite the stock being fitted with a Class 92 compatible 61-way control jumper (apparently) fitted with pins for TDM multiple-unit control.

A position switch would have prevented that incident, as would have fitting the stock to respond to electrical control signals from the locomotive. Either implementation would have cost less than many of the systems on the railway that have very carefully considered backups and proving arrangements. Instead the railway, in this case, relied on procedural controls by fallible human beings. Just seems odd to me.

While it would be possible to detect the position of the brake isolation lever, that is only one possible problem that could cause a discontinuity in the brake line. Surely any safeguard has got to protect against all the possibilities? And if you have a safeguard that guards against all possibilities, why spend additional money on something that only guards against one? Particularly as added complexity means more chances of failure, that brings in extra risks.

Similarly for the TDM system, why spend extra money for something that only partially guards against a problem?

I suspect that if you were designing train air brakes from scratch today, there probably would be additional safeguards included that weren't practical at the time they were originally designed. A discontinuity in the brake pipe could nowadays be electrically detected, for example. However, at the time, doing a brake test from the rear vehicle was the only practicable way of doing it.

Railway safety systems have evolved over time. Each successive evolution has had to be justified. And importantly, has had to be backward compatible with existing practice.
 

HSTEd

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While it would be possible to detect the position of the brake isolation lever, that is only one possible problem that could cause a discontinuity in the brake line. Surely any safeguard has got to protect against all the possibilities? And if you have a safeguard that guards against all possibilities, why spend additional money on something that only guards against one? Particularly as added complexity means more chances of failure, that brings in extra risks.
A safeguard is still a safeguard if it only protects against some risks. Obtaining total protection from any engineered solution is often impractical.
That doesn't mean that we should make no attempt to protect against faults.

There are very few situations I can think of which can entirely seal brake pressure inside the coaching stock air line whilst entirely disconnecting it from the locomotive in such a manner that the locomotive compressor can still keep the locomotive side air line filled. By far the most likely from my perspective is that the isolating valve is closed!
If the coaching stock side is open even a little the brakes will come on, and if the leak on the locomotive side is too large for the compressor the problem will be obvious to the locomotive control system/driver.


Similarly for the TDM system, why spend extra money for something that only partially guards against a problem?

I suspect that if you were designing train air brakes from scratch today, there probably would be additional safeguards included that weren't practical at the time they were originally designed. A discontinuity in the brake pipe could nowadays be electrically detected, for example. However, at the time, doing a brake test from the rear vehicle was the only practicable way of doing it.

Railway safety systems have evolved over time. Each successive evolution has had to be justified. And importantly, has had to be backward compatible with existing practice.
Well, according to the TDM system description in the now withdrawn standard GM/GN2590 'Traction & Rolling Stock – Vehicle Electrical Interconnectors', the generic BR TDM specification includes signal lines by which coaching stock can signal to locomotives that the brakes are isolated. There are spare channels that could be used to relay brake state to the locomotive if that was desired.
 

Belperpete

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A safeguard is still a safeguard if it only protects against some risks.
Not if the risks it introduces outweigh those it mitigates.

Obtaining total protection from any engineered solution is often impractical.
That doesn't mean that we should make no attempt to protect against faults.
But the railway wasn't making no attempt to protect against faults. It had a well-proven system in place that was designed to protect against all brake discontinuity faults. And as you say, obtaining total protection is often impractical, as proved to be the case.

Well, according to the TDM system description in the now withdrawn standard GM/GN2590 'Traction & Rolling Stock – Vehicle Electrical Interconnectors', the generic BR TDM specification includes signal lines by which coaching stock can signal to locomotives that the brakes are isolated. There are spare channels that could be used to relay brake state to the locomotive if that was desired.
I am not saying it couldn't be done. I am saying that, just as with your suggestion to prove the brake lever, there was no reason to do it.

As one of my old bosses used to say, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. There needs to be a reason to do it, particularly if it is going to cost money or make the system more complex and therefore less reliable.
 

HSTEd

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Not if the risks it introduces outweigh those it mitigates.
Perhaps it is a failure of imagination, but I'm not sure what safety risks are introduced by introducing diverse means of tripping brakes in hauled trains in an emergency, and/or installing monitoring of brake isolation systems.
But the railway wasn't making no attempt to protect against faults. It had a well-proven system in place that was designed to protect against all brake discontinuity faults. And as you say, obtaining total protection is often impractical, as proved to be the case.
This is not the first incident caused by a mistake in brake isolation. This was one of the most high profile, but there have been SPADs caused by brake isolation cocks being closed incorrectly, including this RSSB report in 2020 on a freight train at Crofton West junction.
At around 09:54 hrs, the driver of a freight train applied the brakes on the approach to a red signal at Hare Park Junction, near Wakefield but was unable to stop. The train continued with the brakes applied and passed a second red signal, about 2200 metres later, that was protecting Crofton West Junction. The train came to a stop 250 metres beyond the junction. A passenger train that was approaching Crofton West Junction on a conflicting route was stopped by signals when it was approximately 3 km away.

There was also the runaway Class 66 incident at East Didsbury back in 2007 that resulting in a locomotive yo-yo-ing through a worksite with no lights or noise warning, which would have been prevented had mistakes in air brake isolation had been avoided or had been detected before the later coupling failure.
Immediate cause, causal and contributory factors, underlying causes

7 The immediate cause of the incident was that the rearmost wagon drawhook broke at a time when the train was on an upward gradient and when the trailing locomotive had no air supply available in its air reservoirs to apply the brakes.
8 The following causal factors were identified:
- a sudden, larger than recently experienced tensile load was applied to the drawhook;
- the drawhook had a pre-existing fatigue crack below the gedge slot;
- the Assist Failed Train (AFT) cock on the trailing class 66 locomotive was not opened when train 6L22 left Crewe;
- residual air within the trailing locomotive’s reservoirs was used up on the journey between Crewe and the incident location; and
- the class 66 locomotive design requires the AFT cock to be manually opened to allow the locomotive to be safely dead-hauled on the back of a single piped train.

I think there are probably others but these are the ones that came to mind immediately, I'd say brake isolation mistakes and failures are probably a significant portion of the entire remaining non-suicide risk on the railway.

I am not saying it couldn't be done. I am saying that, just as with your suggestion to prove the brake lever, there was no reason to do it.

As one of my old bosses used to say, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. There needs to be a reason to do it, particularly if it is going to cost money or make the system more complex and therefore less reliable.
Most safety-case industries have increasingly deprecated so-called 'procedural' controls as a means of guaranteeing safety.
Even the railway has moved in this direction with increasing emphasis on automatic train detection and interlocking, as well as on various train protection mechanisms.
By contrast the air brake remains aloof from such changes.

The changes necessary to the sleeper stock to eliminate this source of risk are smaller than in the freight train cases (which are now the vast majority of trains in which traditional air brakes are used), because the necessary control specification is already established and connectors with the necessary pins already provided.
 
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