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What efficiencies could GBR bring?

AlanRailer

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If Network Rail is anything to go by, costs will massively increase.
Why have 2 people working when you can milk it for 10?

Though normally I seem to see about 1 Network Rail worker for every 10 people standing around looking important.
 
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Robin Edwards

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I care about three things - quality of service, value to me as a passenger and value to me as a taxpayer. The service can be superb but if I can't afford to use it (which is true of peak time long distance services in the UK) it serves me no purpose.

Generally economies of scale will mean operating the railway as one is cheaper than farming bits of it out.

Well said. Most responses have been inward facing but railways are run as a public service so Value for ££ and Reliability are what stand out for me.

Does anyone share my thoughts that under a single GBR operator, service diversions could increase and service cancellations decrease?
 

JonathanH

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Does anyone share my thoughts that under a single GBR operator, service diversions could increase and service cancellations decrease?
That is going to take time. You really need to have more frontline staff, and to make that happen ability to cover work. Even on networks where there is no 'multiple operator' running, the railway can't sensibly recover from disruption at present - for example, even though the lines into London Victoria reopened early evening last night, whole service groups did not resume until this morning.
 

Bletchleyite

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Does anyone share my thoughts that under a single GBR operator, service diversions could increase and service cancellations decrease?

Not sure that will happen but diverting without losing ticket validity will be easier.

If they are pruning some intercity services during the school holidays it could be easier to arrange something like a 9 car 80x from LNER, driven by an LNER driver and conducted by an EMR one, to go to Skeggy.
 

eldomtom2

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The latest order (Transpennine) has trains with a 90 mile battery range. That's a game-changer for the economics of electrification.
There's a big asterisk there and that's that they're only intended to go 45 miles off-wire between charges to not strain the batteries. A return journey on a line of 45 miles is evidently considered too long for a BEMU to make on its own without charging at the end.
 

Sorcerer

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Which means an absolutely massive training programme:

All ex-Avanti x weeks learning 220/221
All ex-Avanti x weeks learning Bhm to Reading & Cov to Leamington
All ex-XC x weeks learning 390
All ex-XC x weeks learning Cov to Euston (& Soho-Stechford plus??)
All ex-XC x weeks learning Stoke/Staff - TV - Rugby

And then find ways of everybody doing each others work with their own T&Cs and retaining all that route knowledge.

And all to what end and at how much cost to the treasury?
In terms of what end, it would providing the maximum amount of flexibility available within a depot. As it stands now if there is a CrossCountry driver at Manchester who calls in sick and there's no spare, nothing can be done. But CrossCountry and Avanti drivers at Manchester both have common route knowledge over Manchester to Birmingham, so while an Avanti driver couldn't simply step in, under GBR with these merged depots you could have an intercity driver who normally works London diagrams step in to take it to Reading, or at least as far as Birmingham where another spare can be called in.

It's not something that I've properly stress-tested on the forums yet but I am prepared to make a separate thread about it specifically.

The cost to the treasury is the biggest obstacle here, and to be fair this might be what actually shuts down the idea if anything.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I see them on regular UK-focussed pages, not railway-focussed at all!
Well that's good then I suppose, putting pressure on Labour to transition away from ROSCOs means a more efficient railway in the long-term. But truthfully I still wouldn't consider it a vote-winner in the grand scheme of things. A sensible policy, just not a headline one.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well that's good then I suppose, putting pressure on Labour to transition away from ROSCOs means a more efficient railway in the long-term. But truthfully I still wouldn't consider it a vote-winner in the grand scheme of things. A sensible policy, just not a headline one.

I suppose it's a trade off between cheaper now and cheaper later, just like buying a car using money you have/a personal loan vs. PCP.

Had privatisation not happened, there would be a lot of stock around now that was long since paid off and so was free in effect, for instance - Mk4s, 15x...
 

Sorcerer

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I suppose it's a trade off between cheaper now and cheaper later, just like buying a car using money you have/a personal loan vs. PCP.

Had privatisation not happened, there would be a lot of stock around now that was long since paid off and so was free in effect, for instance - Mk4s, 15x...
It certainly would make cascading fleets easier I'm sure. Your analogy of buying a car is interesting because the original idea of ROSCOs was that private operators could make them compete to offer the best available trains like a company leasing cars. The obviously glaring problem here is that trains aren't cars, and if for example you are in a situation where you wanted to run 125mph over the WCML, you needed a tilting train, which meant you need a Pendolino, of which there was only. So in that sense Angel Trains ceased to be a train rental company and more of a rolling stock landlord.
 

SynthD

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All these announcements are shaping GBR's mode of operation, but there is as yet no "guiding mind" (unless you count Peter Hendy) representing the organisation which will deliver the strategy.
Maybe they are trying to build something free of a personality, as it's bigger than any one person. He must be near retirement. The guide is Treasury.

If they are pruning some intercity services during the school holidays it could be easier to arrange something like a 9 car 80x from LNER, driven by an LNER driver and conducted by an EMR one, to go to Skeggy.
If that was requested now, or before Covid, what would happen? They'd see if the EMR pilot is signing on at one end and has a rest room at the other end of their section? Someone would be signing off on two drivers pay for movement of one train?
 

Snow1964

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Dft has confirmed all future rolling stock will have level boarding

New publicly-run trains will aim to have level boarding as standard to improve accessibility, as part of the government’s strategy for new trains, announced 28 September 2026.

Great British Railways (GBR) will make unassisted level boarding between the train and platform a baseline expectation for all new trains wherever possible, in a move towards greater accessibility on the rail network.

This means passengers with disabilities, mobility difficulties and others who need assistance, such as parents with pushchairs and those travelling with luggage, will benefit from much easier journeys, giving everyone more freedom to travel independently.
 

SargeNpton

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Harpo

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Sorcerer

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Dft has confirmed all future rolling stock will have level boarding


Pretty sensible decision in my opinion. Bombardier already proved it possible on the London Underground subsurface stock, Stadler have proven it possible on the main line railway, and Alstom are continuing that with the new TPE stock procurement. It might mean an end to a more traditional intercity unit with full end doors on each end of a saloon area (which I do like to be fair), a functional railway takes priority. Plus Stadler's SMILE/Giruno shows you can still make a nice express passenger unit with level boarding even if the doors are in the middle rather than the end.
 

jack31439

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Sections from the strategy outline which seem like good ideas to me are those around logistics and supply chains, have a nationwide inventory and strategy for obsolescence. Also the notes about manufacturer and operator contracts such as TSSSA agreements, and how the current set up is uncompetitive. Hopefully allows more freedom with future contracts. Very little in the way of changing existing deals and fleet contracts, but I guess at least a new footing with future financing, contract and plans might yield benefits in the long term.
 

Elecman

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Back to efficiencies, one thing I think will be abolished is the Chiltern East West Rail depot at Bletchley, without a member of staff there ever having operated an East West Rail train in service. There is no point having two different GBR staff depots at the same location. It might as well be folded into the existing Bletchley crew depot (and avoid putting a building on the short stay car park as was I think the intention).
The Bletchley EWR train crew depot is based on spare land at the side of the WMT maintenance depot
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Surely you would need less managers and directors?
Leadership and control staff are the only areas of pure overlap. Anyone on access contracts wont be needed but there small beer.

The reason why the railway cost so much is decades of trying to make it ever safer and less risk adverse and its highly unlikely that any of that will be rolled back. Even the Williams review didnt hold a candle to large savings from integrating track & train.
 

Bald Rick

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Does anyone share my thoughts that under a single GBR operator, service diversions could increase and service cancellations decrease?

Any servcie diverted away from it’s booked calling points counts as a cancellation (at least in part), so to an extent increased service diversions means cancellations increase.
 

quantinghome

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There's a big asterisk there and that's that they're only intended to go 45 miles off-wire between charges to not strain the batteries. A return journey on a line of 45 miles is evidently considered too long for a BEMU to make on its own without charging at the end.
Even if the off-wire limit is 45 miles (I'm not convinced it is, but let's say it is for the sake of this discussion), taking my example, you'd cover all Calder Valley and East Lancs services by electrifying from Leeds to Bradford Interchange (which is already planned) and from Preston to Blackburn. A large proportion of the UK's non-electrified network can be covered similarly, with short extensions to the current OHL network.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Leeds- Bradford Interchange is part of the (unfunded) NPR project rather than TRU.
Some money has been allocated for NPR design work, but as far as I am aware isn't yet part of NR plans, and there are no dates.

But then, wiring at Hull, Scarborough and Saltburn termini wasn't in the TRU budget either, but it will come courtesy of the BEMU fleet investment.
Northern's prospective BEMU order may also prompt tactical wiring of parts of their routes (which could include Calder Valley).
 

geoffk

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If GBR means fewer CEOs or MDs, with salary savings, will there be a GBR chairperson equivalent to the old BR chairmen, some of whom were well-known public figures, particularly Sir Peter Parker, who was often seen on TV. He was a champion of the railway, with no equivalent since 1997. While Government will continue to want to reduce the cost of the railways to the taxpayer, this can include revenue growth as well as cost-cutting.
 

quantinghome

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Leeds- Bradford Interchange is part of the (unfunded) NPR project rather than TRU.
Some money has been allocated for NPR design work, but as far as I am aware isn't yet part of NR plans, and there are no dates.
The ES3 design is underway as we speak and is certainly a NR project, so I don't really know what you mean by it not being part of NR plans. Technically you are correct that it's not fully funded (although obviously the current stage is). However, as with every other project, it has to go through DfT business cases and funding doesn't get allocated until those are approved. So saying it's unfunded is pretty meaningless.

But then, wiring at Hull, Scarborough and Saltburn termini wasn't in the TRU budget either, but it will come courtesy of the BEMU fleet investment.
Aren't they getting a plug connection at the station rather than overhead wires?

Northern's prospective BEMU order may also prompt tactical wiring of parts of their routes (which could include Calder Valley).
Indeed, but as per my point upthread, you don't need much electrification to do this.
 

eldomtom2

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Aren't they getting a plug connection at the station rather than overhead wires?

According to @hwl, who seems knowledgable on the topic, there is now a local charging standard specifying OHLE or third rail, so one would hope that will be used for the TPE charging facilities - if nothing else, it would ensure compatibility with potential other models of BEMU:
Since the Viva Rail trail euphoria of summer 5 years ago, there is now a standardised approach to local charging (outlined in RSSB T1372?) namely standard OHLE or 3rd rail just with a local power supply so there are no issue if Hull trains wanted to joint the party (the new First group 80x units (808?) to strengthen Lumo/Hull services are OHLE / battery only but I'm not sure if the plan is always to 802+808 rather than 2x 808) or electrifying later.
 

YamYamDave

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Having read the Rolling Stock strategy I note they seek 4 common classes of fleet across: Intercity, Regional, Commuter, Metro. How many classes of unit do we think they’ll aim to achieve? All Hitachi 80x fleet for intercity would be sensible, even after the mess that is 810 introduction.

What do people suggest are the best examples of each on the network built in the last 5-6 years?
 

Harpo

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According to @hwlwho seems knowledgable on the topic, there is now a local charging standard specifying OHLE or third rail, so one would hope that will be used for the TPE charging facilities
I’m not remotely doubting our fellow contributor but as the builders of the new TPE fleet haven’t yet determined the charging time (according to October’s Modern Railways), despite knowing the total capacity of the batteries, I will be interested in what is being delivered power wise by those OHLE charging sections.

I do hope though that there is a common standard as an OHLE version of the disabled ramp variation fiascos with train specific bits of charging kit dotted around the network would be beyond the pale.
 

brad465

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Having read the Rolling Stock strategy I note they seek 4 common classes of fleet across: Intercity, Regional, Commuter, Metro. How many classes of unit do we think they’ll aim to achieve? All Hitachi 80x fleet for intercity would be sensible, even after the mess that is 810 introduction.

What do people suggest are the best examples of each on the network built in the last 5-6 years?
755s are probably up among the best for Regional, with the related 231s and 756s at TfW. These could be a good template for GWR and Northern's fleet tenders.

Aventras seem to be the main new Commuter fleet and have done well on the Elizabeth Line and I'm guessing Greater Anglia with the 720s as well. Only Southeastern and Chiltern arguably are due a replacement commuter fleet anytime soon though.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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755s are probably up among the best for Regional, with the related 231s and 756s at TfW. These could be a good template for GWR and Northern's fleet tenders.

Aventras seem to be the main new Commuter fleet and have done well on the Elizabeth Line and I'm guessing Greater Anglia with the 720s as well. Only Southeastern and Chiltern arguably are due a replacement commuter fleet anytime soon though.
755s would be ideal but no local content may see some pushback against them getting the contracts
 

Sorcerer

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Having read the Rolling Stock strategy I note they seek 4 common classes of fleet across: Intercity, Regional, Commuter, Metro. How many classes of unit do we think they’ll aim to achieve? All Hitachi 80x fleet for intercity would be sensible, even after the mess that is 810 introduction.

What do people suggest are the best examples of each on the network built in the last 5-6 years?
For regional trains, arguably the Aventra might be the best example because of it's sheer versatility. It can be configured for urban rail like the 710, regional express like the 345, and interregional like the 720/730. There is even a bi-mode intercity option though that hasn't really been exercised yet. The FLIRTs are another good example for regional trains in terms of accessibility. I think both fleets combined could very much become the standard for Regional Express, Commuter and Metro units.

The only real outlier here is InterCity because there hasn't really been many true express passenger trains in the last decade aside from the Hitachi fleet and the 397s. These kind of trains don't really need huge variety; you just a need a flagship first tier fleet and a secondary tier fleet at most. Despite not being as good as the 225s and the Pendolinos the Hitachi units will probably remain the standard because of their proven multi-mode capabilities and 26m coaches enabling dense high-capacity seating.
 

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