It is increasingly difficult to remain optimistic about the introduction of 8-car formations and the full reinstatement of the direct Hunts Cross to Southport service. The ongoing disruption—including the restricted 30-minute evening frequency past 8 PM on the Hunts Cross branch—has gone on for far too long. This is now having a tangible economic impact, with falling passenger numbers at St Michaels and local businesses on Lark Lane struggling as a result.
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When can we see introduction of 8-car formations and the full reinstatement of the direct Hunts Cross to Southport service?
- Thread starter Ellis101
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Alan508
Member
It's 30 mins in the evening on most lines, what makes the Hunts Cross branch so special?
When the south Liverpool branch was reopened to Garston, the trains ran to Kirkby!
As I understand it, the 15 min evening service was introduced to provide improved connections to Liverpool South Parkway. Regardless of whether the line is "special", a 50% cut in evening services is not the fabulous future we were promised when the 777s were delivered.
Does anyone know what is happening with 8 cars at Cressington? Twice now they have tried to introduce SDO, both times something has gone wrong after a day or two, then it's months before they try again.
Probably because it’s been every 15 minutes ever since Liverpool South Parkway opened back in 2006.
You’re point is a false equivalence.
What makes Hunts Cross different isn't just about comparing it to Kirkby or Ormskirk it's how the line actually functions. South of Central, Hunts Cross is the sole branch serving the entire southern corridor. When you cut Hunts Cross to 30 minutes, you’re halving the frequency for the entire south side of the city, whereas the northern side splits its frequency across multiple branches.
On top of that, Liverpool South Parkway is a major multi-modal interchange for mainline trains and the airport, and stations like St Michaels feed directly into Lark Lane one of the city's busiest dining and nightlife hubs with a massive concentration of independent businesses.
Cutting evening services by 50% directly hurts that hospitality trade, and St Michaels' passenger numbers dropping by 100,000 in 24/25 proves it (even with the boost from Radio 1's Big Weekend). Other stations along the branch are seeing falling footfall too, so this isn't just an isolated issue.
Having spent two years commuting to college on 8am services, I don't just miss the 6-car formations during peak times I miss the reliable 15-minute evening frequency that made spontaneous trips into town or Lark Lane effortless.
Hunts Cross got 6-car, 15-minute services pre-Class 777s. If the route didnt justify that level of capacity and frequency, Merseyrail wouldnt have run it for almost two decades.
What an awful downgrade.
jamesst
Established Member
I mean you make some excellent points and it 100% is a downgrade, not one of the lines has seen any upgrade since the new stock came.
But let's also be honest, the only reason the Hunts Cross line ever got 6 cars was because the trains came to/from Southport.
The only reason the Hunts Cross line ever got a 15min frequency in the evening was because they were already in place on the Southports and it only cost one extra unit.
MR-507508
Member
Out of interest, how does the bus network compare South of Central compared to the northern side (I must admit, I have no idea regarding the bus network) ?
The buses are more useful for the inner city than for further out. Places with a decent Merseyrail service still get a lot of buses and they're surprisingly well-used despite the 35 to 45-minute travel time if you're going from South Parkway (I can feel a rant coming on about connections to the airport...). When I'm actually in Merseyrail land I live on the Hunts Cross branch and it's basically never faster to get the bus if you're going further than Aigburth/Garston/Allerton.
I think it's a bit unfair to say the Hunts Cross branch is the only rail service for the entire south of the city - sure, the frequencies aren't as good so they're not used as much but there are a good number of people who use Mossley Hill (and to a much lesser extent, West Allerton) to get into town and they serve a large area that simply wouldn't get the train if Merseyrail was their only option. Northern being Northern, of course, the frequency completely tanks on a Sunday (West Allerton gets 11 trains to Lime Street on a Sunday with inconvenient 2-hour gaps), which is such a shame. I'd argue Sundays are more important to get 4tph rather than evenings, since it just completely ruins the turn-up-and-go factor which is what Merseyrail should be about, but evenings still could use the boost. I can't see Hunts Cross-Ormskirk getting evening 4tph in the near future to be honest, so it will probably be a thing for when Southport-Hunts Cross comes back (if it ever does...)
I think it's a bit unfair to say the Hunts Cross branch is the only rail service for the entire south of the city - sure, the frequencies aren't as good so they're not used as much but there are a good number of people who use Mossley Hill (and to a much lesser extent, West Allerton) to get into town and they serve a large area that simply wouldn't get the train if Merseyrail was their only option. Northern being Northern, of course, the frequency completely tanks on a Sunday (West Allerton gets 11 trains to Lime Street on a Sunday with inconvenient 2-hour gaps), which is such a shame. I'd argue Sundays are more important to get 4tph rather than evenings, since it just completely ruins the turn-up-and-go factor which is what Merseyrail should be about, but evenings still could use the boost. I can't see Hunts Cross-Ormskirk getting evening 4tph in the near future to be honest, so it will probably be a thing for when Southport-Hunts Cross comes back (if it ever does...)
KevinTurvey
Member
- Joined
- 9 Oct 2016
- Messages
- 266
As there are many complaints (not just on here either) about the Hunts X service dropping to half hourly after about 7:30, could they not just run some extra trains for a couple of hours? Probably does not require any more staff than the old Southport timetable did to do an in between part turn back service, instead of running all the way to Ormskirk - perhaps Walton or Aintree - Hunts X
If only it were that simple! Over the last few months there have been a good few events around the Hunts Cross branch stations (mainly concerts near Aigburth and St Michaels) that have warranted extra services. Merseyrail's "solution"? Run one extra diagram for the last two hours of the service day, in outbound direction only from the busy station (so that's 4 extra services). And when I went to do the Aigburth one (since I thought it was a cool thing to get a train that started at my local station) it skipped Cressington even though it was booked to stop since it was an 8-car. When I got back to Aigburth (22:45 at this point, so 3 more northbound services planned) the queues were still snaking far out of the station and I imagine it took at least another 30 minutes to get everyone on a train. Not a great showing for Merseyrail.
Personal complaints aside, I imagine the issue is getting the staff to work evening services. I do like the idea of a shorter service but it would be hard to decide where to terminate it: Walton already gets 4tph with Rice Lane so it's worth going beyond there; Aintree would require ECS moves in between because of where the crossover is (not itself a problem, but could increase delays); and if you go as far as Maghull I sort of think you may as well go all the way.
I think there's an ongoing pay dispute which nearly caused major strikes during Open weekend in July, so it could be a tough ask to get more services running at the moment. Southport is back to 6/8 diagrams as 8-cars, so it looks like most of the damaged units are back in service. I'm hopeful that means they can hit the ground running with getting this SDO in working order as soon as possible.
Personal complaints aside, I imagine the issue is getting the staff to work evening services. I do like the idea of a shorter service but it would be hard to decide where to terminate it: Walton already gets 4tph with Rice Lane so it's worth going beyond there; Aintree would require ECS moves in between because of where the crossover is (not itself a problem, but could increase delays); and if you go as far as Maghull I sort of think you may as well go all the way.
I think there's an ongoing pay dispute which nearly caused major strikes during Open weekend in July, so it could be a tough ask to get more services running at the moment. Southport is back to 6/8 diagrams as 8-cars, so it looks like most of the damaged units are back in service. I'm hopeful that means they can hit the ground running with getting this SDO in working order as soon as possible.
MR-507508
Member
Is unit availability the reason the 8 car on the Ormskirk to Hunts Cross line has not been running of late?
I note, 777011, 032, 045 & 049 being long term absentees in recent weeks.
I note, 777011, 032, 045 & 049 being long term absentees in recent weeks.
The ongoing pay dispute has been resolved by the RMT.
In the past 2 weeks I think only 2 weekdays had 100% planned availability. (Sundays actually had more than planned available)
Yes a few incidents and fleet checks have lowered the rate the past couple of weeks.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Maybe it will never go back to Southport - Hunts Cross and it will remain as Hunts Cross - Ormskirk. The stations between Central & Hunts Cross will have to make do with only a half hourly service in the evenings like most of the other lines on merseyrail.
The chippy at St Michael's will just have to learn to cope
The chippy at St Michael's will just have to learn to cope
childwallblues
Established Member
You are quite right jamesstreet. And probably one of the reasons that the Hunts Cross service has stayed at Ormskirk is a potential unit shortage with eight car trains going south of Central.
I’d like to think otherwise. I’ve seen new signage pop up at a few places on the network recently which suggest they want it to come back, since they still shows journey times for stations on the Southport branch and not to Ormskirk. Maybe it’s a bit too early to put up signage with Liverpool Baltic on though? (yes, I know someone must have just pulled the sticker off here on the Merseyrail platforms at South Parkway - there is a similar sign on the Northern Line side of the concourse at Liverpool Central with LVB covered up).
There’s a lot more than just a chippy at St Michael’s and Sefton Park regularly hosts concerts.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Apart from South Parkway though (and Baltic eventually) I fail to see anything between Central and Hunts Cross that justifies 4tph over the Ormskirk line itself. It is not a super-busy part of the network.
The evening frequency doesn't kick in until around 2030, which is quite late. This doesn't preclude the use of the train. It's just not turn up and go.
I'm sure Chester could also make a case for a better evening service.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
4tph isn't literally turn up and go anyway. Given that you have to remember one number and be able to add 15, 30 or 45 to it (or quickly look on your phone) I'd imagine most people would use a timetable in some form anyway.
14 minutes is quite a long time to stand around when most journeys are well under half an hour.
15 minutes to Liverpool Central from Liverpool South Parkway vs 45 minutes on the bus (if traffic is good)
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I'm not asking for over 4tph its not viable the infrastructure isn't there, its just seeing passenger numbers fall across much of the hunts cross branch is pretty sad very obviously due to the Cressington shenanigans resulting in 2tph of an evening after we spent so much money on new trains.
I think 15 minutes is the outer limit for turn up and go! but yes it all becomes a bit less of an issue when a live departures app is employed.
baldyman26
Member
- Joined
- 2 Aug 2012
- Messages
- 139
So does cressington really need 4 tph, the only reason it’s a thing is because idiot councillors were trying to make a name for themselves. According to an internet search st Michael’s had 1 million passengers in 24/25 with Aigburth and cressington having half that. Now if you narrowed that down to after 8pm, I’m pretty sure Aigburth and cressington are minimal and could justify a 30 min 4 car service.
The issue is people and their entitlement, and councillors spreading false information (the closing of Cressington) to keep them relevant.
The issue is people and their entitlement, and councillors spreading false information (the closing of Cressington) to keep them relevant.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Unless you run a very messy timetable you can't just skip stop Cressington as that doesn't solve your train length problem.
It's *either* the Ormskirks (4 car) *or* the Southports (8 car), not a bit of both.
The actual solution is for Stadler to get their finger out and fix the ASDO. ASDO is not hard, various forms of it are in use throughout the network.
This actually reminds me of one of the early images of what Baltic would look like: the departure boards shown services on the same platform to Southport and Ormskirk. If this is the case there are two possibilities:
1. They actually planned to have alternating services from Hunts Cross go towards Southport or Ormskirk. Sounds great in theory (there are definitely people who go beyond Sandhills from the Hunts Cross branch) but I think it means you end up with a 10/20 or at best a 12/18 frequency somewhere. Obviously that means alternating ex-Southport and ex-Ormskirks terminate at Central, but it does give the advantage that if Ormskirk doesn’t warrant the 4tph in the evening you can cut the LVC terminators and keep 4tph Liverpool to Hunts Cross.
2. They extend some services terminating at LVC to LVB. This is probably more likely. In an ideal world they’d add one or two bays at LVB so they can turn the trains there and still have capacity for possibly a 5 or 6tph upgrade for the entire Northern Line later, but that’s definitely not going to happen, nor do they have the trains for it.
I don’t think the South Parkway argument is strong enough at the moment for warranting 4tph. There are a lot of people who use trains out of Lime Street to get there and thats normally enough (there are 7tph in the week between 21:00 and 22:00 for Liverpool Stations to South Parkway). When the new airport “rapid transit” starts it might be a different story. Nor are the intermediate stations particularly well-used compared to Headbolt Lane and Kirkby, for example. I think 3tph everywhere on the Northern Line for the evening (I’m not convinced for the Wirral - a lot of stations get double service anyway) would be a sensible change at least.
Cressington is really not a Capenhurst situation though in terms of its service. Stations like Hightown or Aughton Park are less deserving of 4tph. Getting Cressington to the same service as other stations on the line should be a higher priority than trying to increase evening service at the moment in my opinion. As should be improving the Sunday frequency in the daytime.
As a frequent user of Cressington I am naturally miffed when our station has to put up with a poorer service. But I appreciate that compared to most local stations nationwide we get a good deal.
The Hunts Cross branch as a whole, though, deserves an all-day frequent service. Leaving aside South Parkway, St Michael's is very well used, and the all-hours popularity of Lark Lane, let alone events in Sefton Park, means that it really deserves a metro frequency throughout the day. Baltic, when/if it finally materialises, even more so: no-one is going to hang around for half an hour when they can get a bus within a couple of minutes or walk into/from town in twenty minutes.
Unlike north of Moorfields on the Northern Line, or the Birkenhead end of the Wirral, those stations are not served by multiple services and hence get a less frequent service than most other stations the same distance from the city centre. So either there needs to be turn-back provision at St Michaels, or the frequency through to Parkway (at least) should be doubled.
The Hunts Cross branch as a whole, though, deserves an all-day frequent service. Leaving aside South Parkway, St Michael's is very well used, and the all-hours popularity of Lark Lane, let alone events in Sefton Park, means that it really deserves a metro frequency throughout the day. Baltic, when/if it finally materialises, even more so: no-one is going to hang around for half an hour when they can get a bus within a couple of minutes or walk into/from town in twenty minutes.
Unlike north of Moorfields on the Northern Line, or the Birkenhead end of the Wirral, those stations are not served by multiple services and hence get a less frequent service than most other stations the same distance from the city centre. So either there needs to be turn-back provision at St Michaels, or the frequency through to Parkway (at least) should be doubled.
It's not even the frequency being doubled its going back to what it always was since 2006!