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Trivia: Unfulfilled or unsuccessful franchise bid promises

devon_belle

devon_belle

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I'm interested in promises or plans made as part of past franchise bids, particularly some of the crazier ones from early privatisation. I'm also interested in any successful bids that then didn't deliver their promises.

One example that comes to mind is the Sea Containers bid for South West Trains' franchise. Does anyone remember the details?
 
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A S Leib

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Avanti's bid included
  • 2 tph to Liverpool, including Liverpool South Parkway calls (implemented)
  • Walsall to Euston services (hasn't happened; London Northwestern run a direct daily service each way)
  • Extra Motherwell calls (implemented; I can't remember how large the increase has been. It looks like in 2016 there were 4 northbound and 3 southbound calls; 9 northbound and 12 southbound now.)
  • Llandudno to Euston services (hasn't happened)
  • Extra Milton Keynes services (unsure if there's been any peak increases. Off-peak has stayed at 3 tph with Chester and Scotland via Birmingham calls generally replaced by Liverpool and Birmingham terminator calls)
  • Extending the Wrexham service from / to Gobowen (hasn't happened)
  • An extra Shrewsbury service (Shrewsbury lost all Avanti services instead)
Part of that's probably bad luck due to having started shortly before Covid.

Arriva's bid for Northern included Northern Connect regional services, with bits which haven't happened being
  • No Liverpool to Leeds via Calder Valley / Bradford services
  • Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Calder Valley / Bradford services not going through to Manchester Airport
  • No (hourly) Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Durham services
  • Leeds to Nottingham services not going through to Bradford
  • New build EMUs rather than DMUs for Windermere services
  • New build DMUs rather than 170s for Sheffield – Scarborough
 
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norbitonflyer

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National Express East Coast franchise included a requirement for two-hourly services to Lincoln, to start in 2010.
NXEC then decided the franchise was uneconomic and handed the keys back. DOR took it over but then moved the goalposts and decided that the services didn't need to be run anyway - somewhat unfair on NXEC, who weren't given that option. It would be another nine years, and another two chages of operator, before Lincoln finally got its direct London trains.

Earlier, Sea containers had planned to run buses from Lincoln to connect with their services at Newark, which would have competed with Central Trains - a little misguided as the A46 was still a single carriageway, and any buses would get stuck in Lincoln's congested city centre.

Having written a letter to Modern Railways criticising this idea, and having a courteous but dismsissive reply from him, I was somewhat emabarrased to discover he was the host at a social occasion I had been invited to as a "plus one"

If I recall correctly, it was Seacontainers who, as part of their SW franchise bid, suggested moving Clapham Junction station further east.........
 
Mcr Warrior

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Back in 2000, Go-Ahead Group plc were unsuccessful in their bid to win the Chiltern Railways' franchise from off the existing M40 Trains consortium. Believe 'Go-Ahead' had supposedly promised a £990mln investment, had they won. Anyone got turther details?
 
devon_belle

devon_belle

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Was it Sea Containers or SWT who proposed 'gold plating' London Waterloo to Surbiton (?) with an extra 'tidal' track etc?
 
61653 HTAFC

61653 HTAFC

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I vaguely remember a RAIL article about Sea Containers' "GSWR" bid. Supposedly there were proposals to relocate and rebuild Clapham Junction, and even the suggestion of double-deck trains... though this was RAIL so a punch of salt is required.
 
sprinterguy

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norbitonflyer said:
Earlier, Sea containers had planned to run buses from Lincoln to connect with their services at Newark, which would have competed with Central Trains - a little misguided as the A46 was still a single carriageway, and any buses would get stuck in Lincoln's congested city centre.
Click to expand...
That one did operate for a short time as per the photo below (not my own), along with a Bradford to Wakefield Westgate variant:
www.flickr.com

L29 CAY: Wright, Newark

Seen at Wright's Newark depot, L29 CAY is painted in GNER dark blue livery for use on the Lincoln-Newark Railink service. It is a Dennis Javelin with Caetano Algarve II coachwork, obtained new in 1994.
www.flickr.com www.flickr.com
 
bramling

bramling

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devon_belle said:
I'm interested in promises or plans made as part of past franchise bids, particularly some of the crazier ones from early privatisation. I'm also interested in any successful bids that then didn't deliver their promises.

One example that comes to mind is the Sea Containers bid for South West Trains' franchise. Does anyone remember the details?
Click to expand...

WAGN north of Peterborough, though I can’t recall if that was ever a solid commitment as opposed to an aspiration. Glad it didn’t happen as it wouldn’t have been good for the core market users at the south end of the route.
 
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Djgr

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Alas, I think fulfilled promises may yield a shorter list.
 
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A S Leib

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Mcr Warrior said:
Back in 2000, Go-Ahead Group plc were unsuccessful in their bid to win the Chiltern Railways' franchise from off the existing M40 Trains consortium. Believe 'Go-Ahead' had supposedly promised a £990mln investment, had they won. Anyone got turther details?
Click to expand...
I think that was the same time as Chiltern / M40 were proposing reopening the Grand Central Main Line at least as far as a Rugby Parkway station.
 
S

Sir Felix Pole

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norbitonflyer said:
National Express East Coast franchise included a requirement for two-hourly services to Lincoln, to start in 2010.
NXEC then decided the franchise was uneconomic and handed the keys back. DOR took it over but then moved the goalposts and decided that the services didn't need to be run anyway - somewhat unfair on NXEC, who weren't given that option. It would be another nine years, and another two chages of operator, before Lincoln finally got its direct London trains.

Earlier, Sea containers had planned to run buses from Lincoln to connect with their services at Newark, which would have competed with Central Trains - a little misguided as the A46 was still a single carriageway, and any buses would get stuck in Lincoln's congested city centre.

Having written a letter to Modern Railways criticising this idea, and having a courteous but dismsissive reply from him, I was somewhat emabarrased to discover he was the host at a social occasion I had been invited to as a "plus one"

If I recall correctly, it was Seacontainers who, as part of their SW franchise bid, suggested moving Clapham Junction station further east.........
Click to expand...
GNER also ran a bus from Bradford to connect at Wakefield for a time which unsurprisingly failed to attract custom. Another crackpot idea was to de-electrify north of Newcastle to Edinburgh.
 
YorksLad12

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GNER also planned the "electric horseshoe", in which trains from Leeds would head east towards Doncaster and London via Hambleton and some new electrification.

We will, eventually, at least get some of the electrification...
 
tbtc

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The NXEC plan was for a bihourly KX path, running to Harrogate via York in the alternate hour to the London service. National Express got the 180s in anticipation, but the (Government run) East Coast sublet these to Northern so they trundled around on Blackpool - Hazel Grove services

The number one "what if" bid was the original Virgin bid for the ECML which wanted parkway stations at Edinburgh (Musselburgh), Doncaster (south of the town - now city - probably around the M18) and one near the M25 - plus new line avoiding bottlenecks like Welwyn and Morpeth (potentially meaning less need for HS2, back in the era when things could be made a lot cheaper, with fewer bat surveys etc)

As for GNER, as well as the buses to Lincoln and Bradford already mentioned, they had similar ones to Hull/ Grimsby etc from Doncaster (the Stagecoach 909), plus Barnsley (X19). I don't mind TOCs using bus links to service markets without trains (Penrith to Keswick etc), but GNER have an amazing reputation considering how quick they were to encourage passengers to ditch local trains
 
Helvellyn

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Stagecoach's twenty year SWT franchise proposed the gold-plated infrastructure Surbiton-Waterloo because the costs of a collapsed Peak were huge to them.

They also proposed a rebuild of Clapham Junction - certainly platform 7-17 parts - closer to Waterloo to get straightened platforms with better space and ability to distribute passengers.

A 10-car Windsor Lines service would also have been delivered a decade earlier than it eventually was. The original 450 order was 100 450/0 4-car and 32 450/2 5-car units. The SRA changed the order when the twenty-year franchise was scrapped to 110 450 4-car units. The remaining 120 vehicles became the 30 Class 350/1 4-car units, split between Silverlink and Central Trains.

I did hear their original 2007 franchise proposals also included a major refurbishment/rebuild of the 442s. Then DfT mandated certain seat numbers into Waterloo for the peaks. So Porterbrook offered a cracking 458 lease deal, the 442s were returned to Angel, and 450s on Portsmouth Direct fasts came about in the peaks.
 
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ScottGallagher

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I seem to recall Silverlink exploring tilting trains at the time of the Pendolino introduction, probably in RAIL though !
 
RichJF

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Was it Connex South Central that promised 100mph track on the Arun Valley Line & via Dorking?
 
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Pyewipecarshed

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tbtc said:
As for GNER, as well as the buses to Lincoln and Bradford already mentioned, they had similar ones to Hull/ Grimsby etc from Doncaster (the Stagecoach 909), plus Barnsley (X19). I don't mind TOCs using bus links to service markets without trains (Penrith to Keswick etc), but GNER have an amazing reputation considering how quick they were to encourage passengers to ditch local trains
Click to expand...
They weren't really similar; the Lincoln and Bradford services were dedicated routes whilst the X19 and 909 were ordinary bus routes on which an agreement was reached regarding through ticketing.
I believe they had similar arrangements from Peterborough to Kings Lynn (Eastern Counties X1) and York to Pickering/Whitby (Yorkshire Coastliner 840/842).
 
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ScottGallagher said:
I seem to recall Silverlink exploring tilting trains at the time of the Pendolino introduction, probably in RAIL though !
Click to expand...
Also suggested a Milton Keynes to Brighton line service with some sort of diesel stuff - Turbos were suggested before the idea was binned as also was a service via the North London line to Liverpool Street (also binned) - the "penalty" from OPRAF was to advertise local services on Milton Keynes bus services !

The Watford - Euston went back to 3 TPH - it had been reduced to 2 tph when a daft Bletchley - Euston AC service calling at Bushey , Harrow Wembley Central and Queens Park ran for a while - it was very poorly used , though all day calls at Bushey on the AC was put in (my idea !) which did quite - over a 1000 passengers a day quite quickly.
 
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mike57

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I am sure that Northern had plans to run a York - Scarborough service pre covid to give 2tph. I seem to remember seeing a couple of Pacers near Malton on crew training or similar when I was working in Malton. I dont know how far it progressed, but obviously killed off once covid hit.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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Tester said:
.....for which I and many others are, to this day, extremely grateful!
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There were 3 calls a day I reckon , and some fear locally , such I was invited to see the Mayor of Watford about it - so I was able to tell her that we had reconsidered - pause - and 2 calls at hour were going in ! - not quite sherry all round , but I did get an invitation to her Xmas drinks.

Glad you appreciate it - (as I said before - it was not nice for some unexpected normal passenger to have a lengthy treck on the sometimes quite dodgy and slow DC all stations) - it possibly assisted local estate agents in marketing.
 
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Pyewipecarshed

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mike57 said:
I am sure that Northern had plans to run a York - Scarborough service pre covid to give 2tph. I seem to remember seeing a couple of Pacers near Malton on crew training or similar when I was working in Malton. I dont know how far it progressed, but obviously killed off once covid hit.
Click to expand...
It got as far as the crews learning the route; by early 2020 most York crews had route learned it. I believe it was intended to start in May 2020, but as you say COVID scuppered it.
 
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ChiefPlanner said:
There were 3 calls a day I reckon , and some fear locally , such I was invited to see the Mayor of Watford about it - so I was able to tell her that we had reconsidered - pause - and 2 calls at hour were going in ! - not quite sherry all round , but I did get an invitation to her Xmas drinks.

Glad you appreciate it - (as I said before - it was not nice for some unexpected normal passenger to have a lengthy treck on the sometimes quite dodgy and slow DC all stations) - it possibly assisted local estate agents in marketing.
Click to expand...
It is not unusual these days for the front carriage of evening down trains to virtually empty at Bushey.

On one famous occasion a few years ago, a train normally booked to call at Bushey was clearly advertised at departure from Euston as not doing so (I can't remember the reason). It did however stop, and the doors were released. A large number of passengers (including me) thanked the bemused driver (right by the exit) for forgetting not to stop!
 
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