Wrong Ticket Sold on board Greater Anglia train?

transportphoto · Saturday at 06:36

Haywain said:
Yes, it's worth complaining. If the guard was prepared to sell a ticket he should have sold the right ticket.

Or, at minimum, the relevant full price [anytime] single to a destination served by that train (e.g. Marks Tey).

Regardless of legal technicalities, I’d suggest the scenario warrants a note to Greater Anglia customer services. The guard should have referred to the text in the restriction code not an AI tool.

GA will not prosecute or issue a penalty fare off the back of a complaint.

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saismee · Saturday at 22:18

Sudbury is a pay train station so it is accepted that passengers can purchase on the train without penalty. A prosecution would not be raised unless the passenger showed clear intent to defraud or not pay.

OP should certainly complain about being overcharged, provided they travelled at the correct time. I haven't fully read the thread to confirm the time of travel.

Benjwri · Saturday at 23:06

AlterEgo said:
It isn't a legal defence against a Bylaw allegation. Though the NRCoT are typically unclear I will give you, because it does not give this reason as an exception to civil penalties (new ticket or PF etc) under the same contract.

The Byelaws specifically state that you cannot be in breach of them if:

there was a notice at the station where that person began [your] journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket;

That journeys are bound by the NRCOT is displayed on any TVM, hence in my opinion counting as such a notice.

AlterEgo · Saturday at 23:37

Benjwri said:
The Byelaws specifically state that you cannot be in breach of them if:

That journeys are bound by the NRCOT is displayed on any TVM, hence in my opinion counting as such a notice.

The NRCoT only gives such permission in the case of a non working TVM/ticket office closure or TVM not accepting your method of payment:

There were no facilities for the issue of the Ticket you require or other authority to travel either because there was no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine was not in working order, or would not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash)

It does not authorise you to start your journey without a ticket because the TVM doesn't sell an All Line Rover for example.

saismee · Sunday at 00:31

It is likely that there is a notice at the entrance of Sudbury station stating that it is a pay train station, permitting boarding without a ticket. It is like this at other GA stations on the network.

And this is besides the point of the OP!

Trainbike46 · Sunday at 09:21

AlterEgo said:
The NRCoT only gives such permission in the case of a non working TVM/ticket office closure or TVM not accepting your method of payment:

It does not authorise you to start your journey without a ticket because the TVM doesn't sell an All Line Rover for example.

A few years ago, some of the rural Greater Anglia lines* explicitly allowed purchasing tickets on board if you started from a station without a ticket office.
I now can't find reference to this beyond a reference on the national rail website that says you can do this from "some" greater Anglia stations.
Has this policy changed? If so, when did it change?

*Ipswich-Felixstowe/Lowestoft and Norwich-Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth/Sheringham, at least.

saismee said:
Sudbury is a pay train station so it is accepted that passengers can purchase on the train without penalty. A prosecution would not be raised unless the passenger showed clear intent to defraud or not pay.

OP should certainly complain about being overcharged, provided they travelled at the correct time. I haven't fully read the thread to confirm the time of travel.

If this post is correct, then buying on board would have been allowed. Is there a list of greatest Anglia pay train stations somewhere?

jumble · Sunday at 09:39

Trainbike46 said:
A few years ago, some of the rural Greater Anglia lines* explicitly allowed purchasing tickets on board if you started from a station without a ticket office.
I now can't find reference to this beyond a reference on the national rail website that says you can do this from "some" greater Anglia stations.
Has this policy changed? If so, when did it change?

*Ipswich-Felixstowe/Lowestoft and Norwich-Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth/Sheringham, at least.

If this post is correct, then buying on board would have been allowed. Is there a list of greatest Anglia pay train stations somewhere?

I have no idea if this has been rectified but a few years ago the TVM at Acle would not sell a Wherry Ranger
I pressed the button and a nice man told me to buy a single to Great Yarmouth and excess it there
I did not do so and the train guard just sold it on board
At Yarmouth I asked the ticket office about it
His reply was understandably "I wish they would stop telling customers to buy a single"
On a subsequent visit it seemed that a lot of people just buy on board on the Wherry lines

Goldfish62 · Sunday at 09:43

318266 said:
If the Government thinks it is fine for the Civil Service, then I'm sure we will see more of this in the future.

What's the civil service got to with anything?

Watershed · Sunday at 11:41

The GA website contains a map from 2019 (attached), which listed the aforementioned Norfolk branches as well as the Sudbury branch as pay-train routes. Because it's from 2019 I don't know if it's still accurate.

The signage at the station is ultimately determinative - if it says that you can buy onboard, no Penalty Fare can be issued - but we would need to see that signage to be sure one way or the other.

@saismee 's posts are certainly useful insofar as they reflect their personal experience of working at a GA gateline, but if the above map is outdated and there's no pay-train signage at the station, an RPI may decide to take different action (e.g. issuing a Penalty Fare) than a member of gateline staff or conductor would.

saismee · Sunday at 12:10

Watershed said:
The GA website contains a map from 2019 (attached), which listed the aforementioned Norfolk branches as well as the Sudbury branch as pay-train routes. Because it's from 2019 I don't know if it's still accurate.

The signage at the station is ultimately determinative - if it says that you can buy onboard, no Penalty Fare can be issued - but we would need to see that signage to be sure one way or the other.

I would be a little concerned if this map was outdated as it is still available as a leaflet at many stations.

I had a dig about on YouTube and found a video with a tour of the station. A penalty fares sign is visible from the entrance, but it isn't clear what it says. Sometimes these will have exceptions at the bottom along the lines of "except on Greater Anglia pay-train services between X and Y."

To the left of the penalty fares sign is one of the standard introduction signs, which will specifically state whether it is a penalty fare route or not. I am curious if these contradict eachother, or if the penalty fares sign has an exception.

Watershed · Sunday at 12:36

saismee said:
I would be a little concerned if this map was outdated as it is still available as a leaflet at many stations.

I had a dig about on YouTube and found a video with a tour of the station. A penalty fares sign is visible from the entrance, but it isn't clear what it says. Sometimes these will have exceptions at the bottom along the lines of "except on Greater Anglia pay-train services between X and Y."

To the left of the penalty fares sign is one of the standard introduction signs, which will specifically state whether it is a penalty fare route or not. I am curious if these contradict eachother, or if the penalty fares sign has an exception.

It still refers to Penalty Fares being £20 or twice the single so it's evidently outdated, the question is just whether the map bit is still true.

In fairness it's possible for a station to be part of a Penalty Fares scheme (hence there would be PF warning signage) at the same time as people are allowed to buy onboard. This apparent contradiction just means you can buy onboard without a penalty, but if you refuse to do so when asked, then you can still be issued with a PF. See PF Regulation 6(2) and (6):

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—

(a) there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

(b) the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

(c) a notice was displayed indicating that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket; or

(6) The passenger may, despite paragraph (2) or (3) applying, be charged a penalty fare where the passenger has, while travelling on the train or any preceding train, been invited by anybody acting on behalf of the operator of that train to obtain a travel ticket valid for the journey, train and class of travel used and has refused to do so.

AlterEgo · Sunday at 12:38

Well what a can of worms this one opened. It looks like about four different things are true at once!

Class707SE · Sunday at 13:46

Just wanted to say thank you for all the replies. Very interesting to read through.

I've advised my friend to buy from the ticket machine or online if it doesn't sell what he needs to avoid this kerfuffle again.

I guess the main thing that bugged me was the guard using Ai to try and prove a point about time restrictions (as shown below). Also it's meant to be 08:35 departure, but that doesn't make a difference.

Very thankful that the ticket office at Marks Try could sort it out easily enough.

Here's the link to the actual restriction code: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/yu/

saismee · Sunday at 14:36

Watershed said:
It still refers to Penalty Fares being £20 or twice the single so it's evidently outdated, the question is just whether the map bit is still true.

The printed 2023 version on display at stations has the correct penalty fare info, as well as the same map. The only way to know is to visit the station.

speedy1 · Sunday at 14:56

Alt text for the photo above:

The passenger is holding the return portion of a Sudbury (Suffolk) to Bath Spa Off Peak Return on credit card stock, which displays restriction code YC and Adult Standard Class with 16-25 Railcard at a cost of £83.40. The passenger is standing next to the guard who is on his phone using an LLM / AI tool, searching which restrictions apply to the '08:26 train from Sudbury' and the tool replied that a Super Off Peak is not valid for the train. The photo clearly shows both the phone and the ticket and the time of day.

MikeWh · Sunday at 19:55

I hope the most up to date version refers to contactless PAYG as well as Oyster.

AlterEgo · Sunday at 20:09

Class707SE said:
Just wanted to say thank you for all the replies. Very interesting to read through.

I've advised my friend to buy from the ticket machine or online if it doesn't sell what he needs to avoid this kerfuffle again.

I guess the main thing that bugged me was the guard using Ai to try and prove a point about time restrictions (as shown below). Also it's meant to be 08:35 departure, but that doesn't make a difference.

Very thankful that the ticket office at Marks Try could sort it out easily enough.

Here's the link to the actual restriction code: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/yu/

View attachment 210673

What a splendid picture. This is so perfect. It's made me laugh so much.

speedy1 · Sunday at 20:13

AlterEgo said:
What a splendid picture. This is so perfect. It's made me laugh so much.

Same lol. Comedy gold. Props to the camera getting everything perfectly in focus and the cameraperson everything in frame. I've saved it to my photo archive

Sleepy · Wednesday at 11:13

Having worked in that role I'm appalled that any guard would use AI for ticket restriction information !! A passenger once showed me an AI google page that stated contactless and Oyster were valid to Colchester ....
As regards ticket selling on GA branch lines it has long been the custom to buy on board, this reduced greatly when GA put new TVM's in at every rural station when the company wanted to remove guards before covid. Fortunately the operations director did not get his way and ended up in USA. He clearly thought GA could follow the same path that Southern took.

Wrong Ticket Sold on board Greater Anglia train?

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