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Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

py_megapixel

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Ironically, franchising will therefore see routes 53, 82 & 86 follow route 10a in losing their electric buses, at least for the time being.
Of course, this isn't a massive problem when considering the network as a whole as it won't reduce the overall proportion of services that are electric, it will just mean the electric buses end up on different routes.

A similar thing happened in Manchester with the EVs at Sharston. Under deregulation they were used almost exclusively on routes 43 and 111, making those routes fully electric and other routes fully diesel. With franchising, they seem to have put all the Sharston buses into one big pool, so you now get a mixture of types across all routes.
 
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Fokx

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I expect something else to move into Gillmoss, maybe route 15 or 62 for example.
You're more likely to see the 62 return to Green Lane, reduces the additional cost of ancillary vehicles and drivers hours when you can just swap drivers outside the depot.
 

Northerngirl

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I wonder what's going to happen with the 61 from Bootle to Aigburth Vale since there's a 61 from Runcorn to Liverpool?
They did say in one of the press announcements about removing duplicate numbers, if the Runcorn 61 is included, id guess that will go to a 70something, the Bootle 60s are quite coherent so it would be a shame to loose that
 

317 forever

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They did say in one of the press announcements about removing duplicate numbers, if the Runcorn 61 is included, id guess that will go to a 70something, the Bootle 60s are quite coherent so it would be a shame to loose that
That would be nice, but as Arriva are allowed to keep the number 61 for their commercial route, I think the Bootle - Aigburth Vale route will get a 60s number like 64 or 67.
 

Statto

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It will be the Bootle-Aigburth 61 that changes number (should be to a 161 but hey ho :E) most likely to a 64 or 67, the Runcorn 61 will stay 61, unless Arriva change it.
 

Fokx

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That would be nice, but as Arriva are allowed to keep the number 61 for their commercial route, I think the Bootle - Aigburth Vale route will get a 60s number like 64 or 67.
It will be the Bootle-Aigburth 61 that changes number (should be to a 161 but hey ho :E) most likely to a 64 or 67, the Runcorn 61 will stay 61, unless Arriva change it.

My bet would be 59.

Keeps it in the 50 to 70 numbering series and numerically aligns adjacent to the 60 which also runs Bootle to Aigburth Vale albeit via a different route
 

317 forever

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An irony I notice is that, whereas routes to Widnes/Runcorn (61, 79c, 82a & X4) are due to remain commercial with Arriva, the route going even further east to Warrington (7) is due to join TfLCR franchising.

This is of course because it runs from a garage in the area, namely Green Lane, whereas the Runcorn quartet of routes run from Arriva Runcorn garage.
 

JasonL

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An irony I notice is that, whereas routes to Widnes/Runcorn (61, 79c, 82a & X4) are due to remain commercial with Arriva, the route going even further east to Warrington (7) is due to join TfLCR franchising.

This is of course because it runs from a garage in the area, namely Green Lane, whereas the Runcorn quartet of routes run from Arriva Runcorn garage.
A lot of the 7 to Warrington is in Merseyside still.
 

Fokx

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An irony I notice is that, whereas routes to Widnes/Runcorn (61, 79c, 82a & X4) are due to remain commercial with Arriva, the route going even further east to Warrington (7) is due to join TfLCR franchising.

This is of course because it runs from a garage in the area, namely Green Lane, whereas the Runcorn quartet of routes run from Arriva Runcorn garage.

That's incorrect.
The 329 and 375/385 also runs from a garage in the LCR area bit isn't included in franchising.

The 7 is included because the majority of the route is within the franchised area (Liverpool to Cronton) the next section Cronton to Lunts Heath will be in the area should Halton eventually join, leaving just Lunts Heath to Warrington outside of the boundary.
 

Statto

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The 7 is included in LCR franchising as it operates from Green Lane depot which is going to be one of the depots in the franchising area when franchising expands to Liverpool next year.

Arriva could still decide to move the 7 to Runcorn should they so wish to, but don't think they will, capacity at Runcorn could be an issue though, although Runcorn is a large depot.
 

childwallblues

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It will be the Bootle-Aigburth 61 that changes number (should be to a 161 but hey ho :E) most likely to a 64 or 67, the Runcorn 61 will stay 61, unless Arriva change it.
The 61 Bootle to Aigburth has run as time immemorial whereas the 61 Runcorn to Liverpool was introduced by Halton Transport as an extension of the Crosville route J61.
I would have thought that the former Liverpool Corpora0tion which runs wholly within LCR would take preference.
 

londonteacher

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The 61 Bootle to Aigburth has run as time immemorial whereas the 61 Runcorn to Liverpool was introduced by Halton Transport as an extension of the Crosville route J61.
I would have thought that the former Liverpool Corpora0tion which runs wholly within LCR would take preference.
Agreed. Especially as the Runcorn to Liverpool is running on a permit into LCR and they could be made to change the number as part of the conditions of permit.
 

Fokx

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Arriva could still decide to move the 7 to Runcorn should they so wish to, but don't think they will, capacity at Runcorn could be an issue though, although Runcorn is a large depot.

They wouldn't be able to without the direct permission of Merseytravel/LCR as they wouldn't be granted a permit to operate.
 

Statto

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Once franchising expands to Liverpool, the Runcorn 61 will still be a commercial route operated by Arriva with a permit to run in Liverpool, it's up to Arriva to change the number should Arriva want to, & no one else, LCR will operate the Bootle 61 but LCR can change the Bootle 61.
 

dvfmlfc

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Once franchising expands to Liverpool, the Runcorn 61 will still be a commercial route operated by Arriva with a permit to run in Liverpool, it's up to Arriva to change the number should Arriva want to, & no one else, LCR will operate the Bootle 61 but LCR can change the Bootle 61.
The Runcorn - Liverpool 61, from 6th September, is operated by Arriva on behalf of Merseytravel. Therefore, Merseytravel could change the service and will be calling the shots on whatever it number it gets when franchising hits Liverpool.
 

adam rogan

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One of the anomalies about Merseyside's franchising is that there has not been any talk of a complete overhaul of the status quo as occurred in manchester whereby individual operators despite being distinct, on the surface look and dress identical, use the same vehicles and have the same next stop announcements so that to the passenger, unless you ride on a legacy bus of which many still run in manchester(sometimes with operators inheriting their rival's fleet and running them until a replacement is found), you couldn't tell them apart as a passenger. Do you think Merseytravel will adopt London's model of allowing operators to maintain their uniqueness, i.e uniform, retain logos on bus as stagecoach has on it's new fleet and have it's own distinct next stop announcement system or will it eventually be unified?


I prefer Manchester's model. What is your take? The Bee Network's fleet is diverse(in case this is brought up) but the trajectory is moving towards a uniform standard across the board with time.
 

gka472l

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One of the anomalies about Merseyside's franchising is that there has not been any talk of a complete overhaul of the status quo as occurred in manchester whereby individual operators despite being distinct, on the surface look and dress identical, use the same vehicles and have the same next stop announcements so that to the passenger, unless you ride on a legacy bus of which many still run in manchester(sometimes with operators inheriting their rival's fleet and running them until a replacement is found), you couldn't tell them apart as a passenger. Do you think Merseytravel will adopt London's model of allowing operators to maintain their uniqueness, i.e uniform, retain logos on bus as stagecoach has on it's new fleet and have it's own distinct next stop announcement system or will it eventually be unified?


I prefer Manchester's model. What is your take? The Bee Network's fleet is diverse(in case this is brought up) but the trajectory is moving towards a uniform standard across the board with time.

I suspect it will be same as Bee Network, as in the vehicles won't show the operator (the fleetnumber being the only giveaway), none of the large amount of new vehicles in store ready for St Helens & Wirral carry operator names on them. The electrics at Gillmoss are still being used on commercially operated Stagecoach services, and do carry Stagecoach fleetnames, and would likely have no operator names carried once Gillmoss is franchised. Also, the LCR is procuring all the buses for the franchises, so there should be hardly any, if any at all, legacy vehicles in use once the franchising is complete. Obviously the 'permit' routes would be different of course, with operator's own vehicles in use......
 

M28361M

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One of the anomalies about Merseyside's franchising is that there has not been any talk of a complete overhaul of the status quo as occurred in manchester whereby individual operators despite being distinct, on the surface look and dress identical, use the same vehicles and have the same next stop announcements so that to the passenger, unless you ride on a legacy bus of which many still run in manchester(sometimes with operators inheriting their rival's fleet and running them until a replacement is found), you couldn't tell them apart as a passenger. Do you think Merseytravel will adopt London's model of allowing operators to maintain their uniqueness, i.e uniform, retain logos on bus as stagecoach has on it's new fleet and have it's own distinct next stop announcement system or will it eventually be unified?

Well, Stagecoach's announcement on their website says (my emphasis):-
Bus services in St Helens area will be franchised as part of the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority's new 'Metro' network.

As part of this, all existing services in St Helens (with a few exceptions) will be operated under the 'Metro' name, with new buses and in many cases, revised routes and timetables. Stagecoach is proud to be the contracted operator to provide all of these new services.

Existing Stagecoach services Service 10A Liverpool - St Helens, 152 Ormskirk - St Helens and 157 Rainford - Ashton-in-Makerfield will become part of the new Metro network and will no longer be operated under the Stagecoach brand.
So it looks like operator branding, if it appears at all, will be very much secondary to the Metro brand.

One other point I'm curious about is ticketing. Merseytravel says that operator-specific tickets will no longer be accepted on Metro network buses (subject to a short transition period) and to use Solo instead. That makes sense, as one of the main points of franchising is to have a single joined-up network. But while Arriva and Stagecoach have mobile apps for ticketing, Merseytravel does not, only the Metro card website which only allows you to buy tickets to load onto smartcard (and you have to allow up to 36 hours before the tickets are added to the card). I can foresee complaints about this from people who are used to mobile app tickets.
 

adam rogan

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Well, Stagecoach's announcement on their website says (my emphasis):-

So it looks like operator branding, if it appears at all, will be very much secondary to the Metro brand.

One other point I'm curious about is ticketing. Merseytravel says that operator-specific tickets will no longer be accepted on Metro network buses (subject to a short transition period) and to use Solo instead. That makes sense, as one of the main points of franchising is to have a single joined-up network. But while Arriva and Stagecoach have mobile apps for ticketing, Merseytravel does not, only the Metro card website which only allows you to buy tickets to load onto smartcard (and you have to allow up to 36 hours before the tickets are added to the card). I can foresee complaints about this from people who are used to mobile app tickets.
I will naturally find out in September but I hope my solo pass on my metro card works outside the boundary on franchised buses that leave Merseyside on the return trip! On the Wirral, you only have to worry about the route into Neston but in St Helens, so many routes are cross boundary due to its location, and with Arriva holding onto two of the cross boundary routes(360 and 329), it will be a nightmare if travelling to widnes, wigan, leigh or warrington on franchises buses with a merseytravel ticket and back forced you to pay twice if using the same bus!

With regards to ticketing, they are unlikely to create an app until franchising is complete I surmise.
 

markymark2000

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Merseytravel says that operator-specific tickets will no longer be accepted on Metro network buses (subject to a short transition period) and to use Solo instead. That makes sense, as one of the main points of franchising is to have a single joined-up network. But while Arriva and Stagecoach have mobile apps for ticketing, Merseytravel does not, only the Metro card website which only allows you to buy tickets to load onto smartcard (and you have to allow up to 36 hours before the tickets are added to the card). I can foresee complaints about this from people who are used to mobile app tickets.
Merseytravel have also lovingly confirmed on X that they are continuing to push hard on the numpty county borders for ticketing. Despite the buses being part of the Metro network, Solo and other Merseytravel products (MyTicket excluded) will will not be valid over the county borders INCLUDING Merseyside to Merseyside journeys which cross the border then crosses back (ie the X3 and 37/X37).

So much for progress and bringing things into public control.

Hello, standard Merseytravel Metro tickets (like Solo) and LCR concessionary passes are only valid within the Merseyside boundary, and if your journey crosses into Halton or West Lancashire, you must pay an extra fare for the portion outside of Merseyside.X3 (crossing into Halton): Standard Merseyside-only tickets and passes are not valid for the section of the journey operating within Halton; you need to pay an additional fare from the Merseyside boundary.37A (crossing into West Lancashire): Similarly, validity stops at the county boundary, requiring an extra fare for the portion of the trip in West Lancashire. Exception note: While Halton is part of the Liverpool City Region, general multi-operator ticket boundaries for products like Solo/Trio remain tied strictly to the Merseyside county limits unless a specific cross-boundary extension or special multi-operator arrangement applies. For young people, products like MyTicket do stretch across Merseyside and Halton, but standard adult Metro and concessionary passes follow strict boundary rules. Many thanks. -K
Hello, Yes, that’s correct. A standard Merseytravel Metro ticket would not be valid for the entire X3 journey from St Helens to LJLA because the route crosses into Halton. The ticket would cover the Merseyside section, but an additional fare would be required for the section within Halton, including around Pex Hill/Cronton College. - Thanks K
 

Harryn9000

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The uniform is going to be metro branded supplied by LCR. One thing is we will be getting operators staff pass not LCR ones which I think is bit daft but that could change in future
 

Northerngirl

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Merseytravel have also lovingly confirmed on X that they are continuing to push hard on the numpty county borders for ticketing. Despite the buses being part of the Metro network, Solo and other Merseytravel products (MyTicket excluded) will will not be valid over the county borders INCLUDING Merseyside to Merseyside journeys which cross the border then crosses back (ie the X3 and 37/X37).

So much for progress and bringing things into public control.


Isn't that like the single biggest reason for the whole thing, what an absolute joke. They seem to have it fine with merseyrail so how can this be so different. If they genuinely try to enforce that on the x3 then I can imagine alot of angry conversations
 

Polarbear

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Isn't that like the single biggest reason for the whole thing, what an absolute joke. They seem to have it fine with merseyrail so how can this be so different. If they genuinely try to enforce that on the x3 then I can imagine alot of angry conversations
It does seem counterintuitive!

Given the current Southport-St Helens service allows use of Merseyside tickets throughout, one wonders if that arrangement will change? If so, I foresee some arguments!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Given the current Southport-St Helens service allows use of Merseyside tickets throughout, one wonders if that arrangement will change? If so, I foresee some arguments!
Will there be that many arguments?

The drivers/operators won't be bothered as they have no revenue exposure. It'll just be if revenue protection get on and you'd hope there are more important areas for them to focus on
 

Statto

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I think the 39 St Helens-Newton Le Willows via Burtonwood allows travel throughout the route too, even though Burtonwood is not in Merseyside, the X3 is designed to fail
 

adam rogan

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The reality is, unless a driver is being nit picky, they almost don't care or remember what pass you used when you got on, especially if there is a churn of passengers.

If i ever travel outside the boundary into Greater Manchester from Merseyside, i use my metro card to tap on at start point and have an already topped up bee card which you can stick tickets on at a local paypoint store and either get up and scan it when the bus flags change or if the driver confronts me about it of which a few have.


If a route I'm using goes into Cheshire or Lancashire such as the x1 or x2 or 7 to give a few examples, into areas which don't have all operator smart cards, I use my metro card to get to my destination and pay on my return trip or if the driver tells me to pay. For routes that start and finish in Merseyside such as the 300, or the 152, there is almost never any question as your pass is valid at the start and end of routes just not the middle! I once got the 152 to visit Halsall Church and then got the 300 and had to pay. If i had walked to Lydiate I could have scanned my bus pass.


I thought franchising would tidy this up and create a pass exclusively for both the region(merseyside) and the bus travelled on. I.e a pass which allows you to use non franchised routes but only up to the boundary. And any franchised bus wherever you board it! This would have been a step up over manchester which split tickets into two types, Bee Bus and Anybus. So much for 'Levelling up.'
 
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The reality is, unless a driver is being nit picky, they almost don't care or remember what pass you used when you got on, especially if there is a churn of passengers.

If i ever travel outside the boundary into Greater Manchester from Merseyside, i use my metro card to tap on at start point and have an already topped up bee card which you can stick tickets on at a local paypoint store and either get up and scan it when the bus flags change or if the driver confronts me about it of which a few have.


If a route I'm using goes into Cheshire or Lancashire such as the x1 or x2 or 7 to give a few examples, into areas which don't have all operator smart cards, I use my metro card to get to my destination and pay on my return trip or if the driver tells me to pay. For routes that start and finish in Merseyside such as the 300, or the 152, there is almost never any question as your pass is valid at the start and end of routes just not the middle! I once got the 152 to visit Halsall Church and then got the 300 and had to pay. If i had walked to Lydiate I could have scanned my bus pass.


I thought franchising would tidy this up and create a pass exclusively for both the region(merseyside) and the bus travelled on. I.e a pass which allows you to use non franchised routes but only up to the boundary. And any franchised bus wherever you board it! This would have been a step up over manchester which split tickets into two types, Bee Bus and Anybus. So much for 'Levelling up.'
I've had a few issues with the Warringtons Own Buses on the 22 ( soon to be 322) Drivers quizzing me about where I am travelling to . I guess they will carry on being diligent, if that is the rigt word. But I don't disagree with the Franchised Routes being as you say not being able to remember etc.
 

darloscott

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Will there be that many arguments?

The drivers/operators won't be bothered as they have no revenue exposure. It'll just be if revenue protection get on and you'd hope there are more important areas for them to focus on
Exactly this! Drivers won’t need to care about revenue any more, it’s exactly like that where I work in Queensland (Aus)… company tells us not to get involved as it’s not our revenue. They get paid as long as the bus runs…
 

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