Welwyn Garden City and Hertford services from Dec 2026 -> 4tph

notverydeep said:

Gordon Hill (which is basically the edge of the Greater London conurbation on the Hertford Loop line) as destination would include stops at Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill and Enfield Chase which are significant traffic objectives, so would add greater passenger benefit and generate more revenue, so making much more sense than using the Bowes Park turnback.

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Absolutely. And as every frequency upgrade shows, when it’s TUAG, usage is exponential. This has the potential to be like another metro / Overground - especially having underground sections and connecting with ELL and Crossrail too - both relatively new additions. Thameslink too.

Deserves a fair chance to use the tube infrastructure to the fullest!

notverydeep said:

Gordon Hill (which is basically the edge of the Greater London conurbation on the Hertford Loop line) as destination would include stops at Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill and Enfield Chase which are significant traffic objectives, so would add greater passenger benefit and generate more revenue, so making much more sense than using the Bowes Park turnback.

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The key upcoming development for the Hertford line is the prospect of a New Town at Crews Hill:

The proposed locations are:

• Tempsford, Bedfordshire — up to 40,000 homes built around a new East West Rail station, linking residents to Cambridge, Oxford, London and Milton Keynes
• Crews Hill and Chase Park, Enfield — up to 21,000 homes helping to meet London’s acute housing need
• Leeds South Bank, West Yorkshire — up to 20,000 homes capitalising on the city’s economic momentum and the government’s £2.1 billion local transport investment
• Manchester Victoria North, Greater Manchester — at least 15,000 homes regenerating the heart of Greater Manchester, with a new Metrolink stop connecting residents to jobs across the city
• Thamesmead, Greenwich — up to 15,000 homes unlocking inaccessible riverside land in London, enabled by the planned Docklands Light Railway extension
• Brabazon and the West Innovation Arc, South Gloucestershire — up to 40,000 homes at the heart of a world-class research and advanced engineering economy
• Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire — building on its history as one of the original new towns, to take forward the ‘renewed town’ vision to expand the city by around 40,000 homes and reinvigorate the centre with a new local transport system, boosting connectivity in the Oxford-Cambridge Growth Corridor

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I've said this before elsewhere and I'll say it again here. The long term solution needs to be a new station for Crews Hill New Town with 8 car terminating bays (preferably between the running lines) and a service through the Thameslink Core.

I'd be looking for 2tph Welwyn-Sevenoaks and 2tph Crews Hill-Orpington with 4tph Alexandra Palace-Bromley South.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The long term solution for the Hertford Loop is a simple uniform metro operation.

The latest minutes of the Enfield group quoted in the OP say:

Noted that the Sevenoaks Thameslink services plan to run all day was an aspiration and will continue to run in the peaks only from December 2026

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James H said:

The latest minutes of the Enfield group quoted in the OP say:

Minutes of ETUG Meeting - 20th May 2026 at 19:00hrs Held in the D Block Ground Floor Room 3 of the Enfield Civic Centre

Minutes of ETUG Meeting - 20th May 2026 at 19:00hrs Held in the D Block Ground Floor Room 3 of the Enfield Civic Centre Chair’s Welcome ...

enfieldtransportusergroup.blogspot.com

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As expected - no uplift to the Thameslink service to WGC this December

OneOfThe48 said:

As this group have got things wrong before I’d suggest waiting until a proper announcement before getting hopes up on the Thameslink to WGC being made an all day service.

The Hertford North change feels more likely to be true

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OneOfThe48 said:

As expected - no uplift to the Thameslink service to WGC this December

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It was originally said to be December 2027 so I was surprised when hearing it could be this year. It's a real shame though as a lot of people were expecting it to have been brought forward - especially without the uplift in Moorgate services on the ECML.

jon0844 said:

It was originally said to be December 2027 so I was surprised when hearing it could be this year. It's a real shame though as a lot of people were expecting it to have been brought forward - especially without the uplift in Moorgate services on the ECML.

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Quite staggering really that the Covid 2tph service will have lasted nearly 8 years on the Welwyn route. Rather conveniently has taken the focus of GTR‘s perennial inability to have sufficient driver numbers, though.

I think right now they have plenty of drivers. It's rare to see a train cancelled due to no crew these days (as against a driver out of position due to disruption with no real way to recover).

I thought this was part of the reason to run the Sevenoaks all day, because there are a lot of Thameslink drivers based at Ashford that don't have much else to do.

jon0844 said:

I think right now they have plenty of drivers. It's rare to see a train cancelled due to no crew these days (as against a driver out of position due to disruption with no real way to recover).

I thought this was part of the reason to run the Sevenoaks all day, because there are a lot of Thameslink drivers based at Ashford that don't have much else to do.

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Only in Britain would there be a train crew depot with no trains / no immediate work. It’s quite incredible this is still the case, presumably the result of Cambridge-Maidstone never quite being officially dead, just in the deepest sleep imaginable.

bramling said:

Only in Britain would there be a train crew depot with no trains / no immediate work. It’s quite incredible this is still the case, presumably the result of Cambridge-Maidstone never quite being officially dead, just in the deepest sleep imaginable.

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I wonder how many drivers they still have and what they're doing instead of the Maidstone services? As it is, they need to pass on Southeastern train to get to their services because of their location!

Given the popularity of the Sevenoaks services, it's a shame it won't happen this year, but there is of course the harsh reality that when anything goes wrong just about anywhere between WGC and the south, these services get hit hard or are cut entirely.

They're also not doing Orpington - Kentish Town off peak either, another service on hold since COVID.

SE%Traveller said:

They're also not doing Orpington - Kentish Town off peak either, another service on hold since COVID.

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No chance of this coming back in Dec?

In WAGN/FCC days did Moorgate Line services continue on to Letchworth and possibly Baldock or Royston? I seem to recall seeing an FCC Class 313 at Letchworth. Why GTR stop the Letchworth service originating from Moorgate?

The new Platform 5 at Stevenage gives the Hertford Loop services somewhere to get out of the way of the mainline without disrupting trains. Early and late services continue to go to Letchworth for the sidings there I think.

RacsoMoquette said:

In WAGN/FCC days did Moorgate Line services continue on to Letchworth and possibly Baldock or Royston? I seem to recall seeing an FCC Class 313 at Letchworth. Why GTR stop the Letchworth service originating from Moorgate?

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The train paths between Stevenage and Hitchin were taken by Thameslink trains from the 2018 timetable change.

liam456 said:

The new Platform 5 at Stevenage gives the Hertford Loop services somewhere to get out of the way of the mainline without disrupting trains. Early and late services continue to go to Letchworth for the sidings there I think.

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For a while Hertford loop services had to terminate at Watton at Stone, with a bus service to/from Stevenage, until construction of the new platform 5 was completed.

RacsoMoquette said:

In WAGN/FCC days did Moorgate Line services continue on to Letchworth and possibly Baldock or Royston? I seem to recall seeing an FCC Class 313 at Letchworth. Why GTR stop the Letchworth service originating from Moorgate?

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The Moorgate via Hertford service used to run to Letchworth during the daytime, but at other times reversed at Stevenage. It was never particularly well used north of Hertford and especially Stevenage, but could be quite disruptive especially before the Hitchin flyover opened.

Class 313s were booked to Royston for a time, but not from Moorgate. There was a 2tph KX to Letchworth peak service which was extended to Royston for a time. This went during FCC’s tenure, replaced with a fast Royston service and a slow service KX to Welwyn GC.

Somehow didn't see this thread before, so here are some comments as a user of the Hertford Loop.

As mentioned, this removes most of the immediate justification for a TfL takeover. They did a terrible job with the Lea Valley lines (it's always the NLL & ELL which are the success stories), and the only thing they could do better here immediately is to have a dedicated driver pool. Last year I would've seen that as a big win but reliability has improved remarkably on the Inners and I can't really say driver availability is a problem anymore.

The peak frequency as far as Gordon Hill is not going back to 8tph. Previously ETUG quoted a GTR representative who said this was not possible for reasons unknown. With the current 6tph peak service now being quite reliable I think it is a missed opportunity given that even without cancellations Hertford trains get crowded. However a bigger oddity is that, like now, there will only be 6tph as far as Gordon Hill in the evening peak but all the way to Hertford in the morning.

All trains down the Hertford Loop will stop at all stations unlike 2019 (the timetable already published on Rail Record confirms this). I have a neutral opinion on this - it does make the service easier to manage in disruption and also ensures a clockface timetable everywhere but I think it would've been worthwhile to introduce a semi-fast service to Hertford, calling at all stations from Moorgate to Finsbury Park, then Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill and Hertford North. This links into the problems with the Finsbury Park to Ally Pally section which I describe below. Ideally loops should be constructed at Gordon Hill to allow a true fast Hertford service but this is too off-topic.

I see the popularity of the Sevenoaks service has been mentioned. This is not mainly because it goes through the TL core. Rather the biggest factor is the it starts at Welwyn and provide 16 empty carriages an hour in the morning peak, in addition to the long-existing 24. I'd go as far as to say the Welwyn terminators are more popular than the semifasts at peak which often have no more seats free by Welwyn GC. While not running these services all-day or running 4tph to Moorgate all-day is a loss, I think stops could have been added at Brookmans Park & Welham Green at least. Nothing in the timetable requires these to be skipped for pathing (with the semi-fasts) reasons. Similarly they need to stop at Ally Pally and stops from Finsbury to Ally Pally need to be rationalised overall as I explain below.

Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace is still a mess because Harringay & Hornsey do not have platforms on the Up & Down Slow 2. This results in a weird mix of stopping and non-stopping trains. Many Moorgate-Welwyn trains do not stop at peak which results in this awkward arrangement in the evening peak of (from Finsbury) Platform 8 -> DS2 -> DS1. The ex-Sevenoaks trains do the same thing. Instead this section should get a simple mostly clockface service, with 4tph Moorgate-Welwyn, 4tph Moorgate-Stevenage/Hertford, for a total of 8tph, and the additional 2tph Sevenoaks-Welwyn for Ally Pally. This would allow much better use of the US2 & DS2 as Hertford trains would be the main users of them instead, which is physically much more sensical.

Magdalia said:

I'd be looking for 2tph Welwyn-Sevenoaks and 2tph Crews Hill-Orpington with 4tph Alexandra Palace-Bromley South.

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I agree that these pairings are very logical but it is important to keep in mind the fact that Moorgate is uniquely a dedicated terminus for the Inners. The aspiration with the 717 order was to run a 10tph service from Moorgate to Gordon Hill and there is zero reason to introduce a Thameslink service until this is met; it would be a waste of a dedicated fleet and a dedicated terminus. New Town users of Crews Hill will not plan around such a 2tph service, they will just change at Finsbury for the core if needed (especially if Sevenoaks eventually becomes all-day as you seem to suggest), so this needs to be seen as a way to bypass the capacity limitations of Moorgate which have not yet been met, not as a way to improve connectivity. A 10tph service will not be enough in the long run but only then is a Thameslink service (as well as platform lengthening) worthwhile looking at.

rmHawk765 said:

Somehow didn't see this thread before, so here are some comments as a user of the Hertford Loop.

As mentioned, this removes most of the immediate justification for a TfL takeover. They did a terrible job with the Lea Valley lines (it's always the NLL & ELL which are the success stories)

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Erm, citation needed, methinks?

NCT said:

Erm, citation needed, methinks?

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Agreed - in what way did they do a terrible job with the Lea Valley lines?

NCT said:

Erm, citation needed, methinks?

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Perhaps terrible was an overstatement but they really didn't improve much aside from introducing new stock. The frequencies remain woefully inadequate off-peak and the route's reliability is not particularly amazing, with information during disruption often being poor.

I think the key is what TfL could do differently from GTR/DFTO/GBR without the need to take over part of a depot, split up drivers, change who runs certain stations and the cost of rebranding etc.. plus with a closer working relationship with GTR and Network Rail, how does TfL integrate?

So many questions from a logistical point of view. As I've said countless times, if TfL wants to have the GN Inners branded as LO and the line gets put on the tube map, so be it - it doesn't need TfL to operate anything, just come to an agreement with the DfT/GBR.

The practice of devolution should be based on principle, not haggling over specific events.

jon0844 said:

plus with a closer working relationship with GTR and Network Rail, how does TfL integrate?

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I'm not particularly convinced this is relevant.

This "closer working relationship" will be over an area (the ECML) where there are already 5 train operating companies. If they can all 'integrate', why can't TfL? This might've been a convincing argument if GTR were the exclusive operator on the ECML.

Class15 said:

Agreed - in what way did they do a terrible job with the Lea Valley lines?

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I think, perhaps, the suggestion is that the quality of service on the WAML was always going to improve with GA's new stock. And as TfL haven't delivered meaningful frequency enhancements there; what exactly have they done that GA could not have?
To call that 'terrible' is an overstatement, agreed. But the status quo has largely been maintained, bar station staffing* and tube map membership.

* - not familiar with how WAML stations were staffed pre-LO, making the assumption that they weren't full-time

Mattplans said:

I'm not particularly convinced this is relevant.

This "closer working relationship" will be over an area (the ECML) where there are already 5 train operating companies. If they can all 'integrate', why can't TfL? This might've been a convincing argument if GTR were the exclusive operator on the ECML.


I think, perhaps, the suggestion is that the quality of service on the WAML was always going to improve with GA's new stock. And as TfL haven't delivered meaningful frequency enhancements there; what exactly have they done that GA could not have?
To call that 'terrible' is an overstatement, agreed. But the status quo has largely been maintained, bar station staffing* and tube map membership.

* - not familiar with how WAML stations were staffed pre-LO, making the assumption that they weren't full-time

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TfL are planning to introduce offpeak frequency improvements on the LO services on West Anglia, x20mins to both Enfield and Cheshunt.