Welwyn Garden City and Hertford services from Dec 2026 -> 4tph

[clockend]

The Enfield Transport Users Group (https://enfieldtransportusergroup.blogspot.com/) is reporting (via its email) that:


A. Great Northern

• Hertford Loop services to be 4tph off-peak, with Welwyn services operating 2tph from December 2026.

B. Thameslink

• Thameslink Sevenaoks peak hour services will be running all day from December 2026. New Southgate will receive 4tph off-peaks.

Implies 4tph on both branches with 2tph from Welwyn continuing to Sevenoaks and 6tph to Moorgate. Be interesting how they space the Moorgate service...

 

[James H]

How many days a week will the Sevenoaks service run?

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess staying with the peak pattern of Sevenoaks 00 and 30 and Moorgate at 10 and 40 mins past hour.

 

[liam456]

Hooray for the Hertford Loop! Shame it only took them 7 years to reintroduce 4tph.

 

[cle]

Amazing how re-introducing the status quo before 2019 is seen as a win, and that sluggishness is even defended - but here we are. Good news - this is a potential additional metro (not least Moorgate-Ally Pally) and should be run like one.

And if this means 4tph Catford Loop all day, that is much needed too. North London has tons of parallel, radial tube lines, especially in these areas -South London does not.

 

[VT 390]

And if this means 4tph Catford Loop all day, that is much needed too. North London has tons of parallel, radial tube lines, especially in these areas -South London does not.

The Welwyn Garden City Thameslink services are extensions of the 2tph all day London Blackfriars to Sevenoaks service, the other 2tph on the Catford loop are usually peak Orpington to Midland Main Line (varies Kentish Town to Luton).
So if it is just that the peak Welwyn services will run all day so this itself does not mean an increase off peak Catford loop frequency, of course this could be implemented separately to the Great Northern/ECML enhancements.

 

[bramling]

The Enfield Transport Users Group (https://enfieldtransportusergroup.blogspot.com/) is reporting (via its email) that:


A. Great Northern

• Hertford Loop services to be 4tph off-peak, with Welwyn services operating 2tph from December 2026.

B. Thameslink

• Thameslink Sevenaoks peak hour services will be running all day from December 2026. New Southgate will receive 4tph off-peaks.

Implies 4tph on both branches with 2tph from Welwyn continuing to Sevenoaks and 6tph to Moorgate. Be interesting how they space the Moorgate service...

All in all this is good news, but a few thoughts:-

* incredible it will be nearly 7 years since Covid to get back to what existed before

* the extra services make it hard to justify retaining the disruptive Alexandra Palace calls on the Cambridge services

* if this is going to be the long-term status quo it does mean the 717 fleet is going to be incredibly under-utilised

* all-day Sevenoaks will mean a couple of 700/0s out all day rather than at Hornsey for maintenance. I suspect this will mean a slight increase in Electrostar usage and a slight reduction in 700/0 usage on captive GN diagrams (ie those to Cambridge, Letchworth and Peterborough).

* this is probably the very final nail in the Cambridge-Maidstone coffin

 

[Farigiraf]

Well-timed for TfL to be able to say they're already improving things (ignoring the fact that it's a COVID cut begrudgingly reinstated by GTR) once they take over the line. I'll save my praise for when it's increased to 6tph at least as far as Crews Hill, as it should be.

With the Sevenoaks-Blackfriars extended through the core all day, how much capacity will there be left in the Thameslink core? Enough for the return of the Luton-Orpington?

 

[PGAT]

With the Sevenoaks-Blackfriars extended through the core all day, how much capacity will there be left in the Thameslink core? Enough for the return of the Luton-Orpington?

They both run in the peaks already so it shouldn’t be an issue

 

[OneOfThe48]

Can you share the email? Though I’d treat with caution as this group have form for misinterpreting / getting things wrong!

 

[Geswedey]

I was travelling with one of the members of the user group last week and he confirmed that it was two Stevenage Moorgate two Hertford Moorgate two Welwyn Garden City Moorgate two WGC Sevenoaks each hour off peak

Glyn

 

[Failed Unit]

All in all this is good news, but a few thoughts:-

* incredible it will be nearly 7 years since Covid to get back to what existed before

* the extra services make it hard to justify retaining the disruptive Alexandra Palace calls on the Cambridge services

* if this is going to be the long-term status quo it does mean the 717 fleet is going to be incredibly under-utilised

* all-day Sevenoaks will mean a couple of 700/0s out all day rather than at Hornsey for maintenance. I suspect this will mean a slight increase in Electrostar usage and a slight reduction in 700/0 usage on captive GN diagrams (ie those to Cambridge, Letchworth and Peterborough).

* this is probably the very final nail in the Cambridge-Maidstone coffin

I hope this is true for many of these points, getting rid of the Alexandra Palace calls will be very welcome (unless they are put into the Sevenoaks service instead). I really hope that we see less of the 700s on the London - Cambridge slows.

The demand does seem higher on the Sevenoaks services in the peak.

Be interesting to see the calling patten if it happens, Welham Green, Brookmans Park and Hadley Wood all remain 1/2 hourly.

I really don't think that them taking 7 years to restore this was anything to do with demand but the drive shortage we have suffered since the franchise started.

 

[Intercity_225]

Fantastic to hear!

 

[bramling]

I hope this is true for many of these points, getting rid of the Alexandra Palace calls will be very welcome (unless they are put into the Sevenoaks service instead).

Unfortunately I wouldn’t bank on it. Indeed it’s quite possible we could end up with the Cambridge services keeping the call and the Sevenoaks services running through. For some reason Alexandra Palace seems to hold political sway.

I really hope that we see less of the 700s on the London - Cambridge slows.

No idea what the plan is (probably isn’t even finalised yet), but I’d make a guess that we would likely see something like 10 387 diagrams and 25 379 ones, probably with one or two extra pairs of Electrostars out on the stopping service. Just a guess though, and depends if anything else changes, in particular if there needs to be any lengthening of the 8-car Peterborough peak services.

Be interesting to see the calling patten if it happens, Welham Green, Brookmans Park and Hadley Wood all remain 1/2 hourly.

I think they would have to be, as it would be hard to make it fit the Thameslink path through the core and at the same time be able to reverse at Welwyn. The most reliable we had was in the very early 2018 timetable when one half-hourly service shunted over to platform 1 at Welwyn, that worked well, but wasn’t massively efficient.

I really don't think that them taking 7 years to restore this was anything to do with demand but the drive shortage we have suffered since the franchise started.

Agreed. All just kicked in the long grass and blamed on Covid.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think they would have to be, as it would be hard to make it fit the Thameslink path through the core and at the same time be able to reverse at Welwyn. The most reliable we had was in the very early 2018 timetable when one half-hourly service shunted over to platform 1 at Welwyn, that worked well, but wasn’t massively efficient.

That is very true, the timetable has improved significantly in the morning peak now the Thameslink service doesn't need to shunt into the sidings anymore and the Cambridge services isn't on the same platform as the next Southbound Thameslink service. The Evening peak still has the shunt but it doesn't seem to cause as many problems.

However typically the Thamelink service arrives at WGC at x15 and x45 and leaves at x00 and x30. It has some padding in it and could possibly cut 5 mins of the time (Particually Southbound) - however it does something rarely achived now - it runs on time so trying to add extra stops in will probably result in too little time to turn around at WGC. Granted the 717s from Moorgate normally have less dwell but that isn't a benefit.

I have always said I would prefer cthe Sevenoaks all day over the Moorgate returning to every 15 minutes. We shall see how it all works out. I can see the arguements to having the Moorgate - Alexander palace every 15 minutes, which will mean extension to WGC. Not sure if 8tph on the slows will work all day. The Sevenoaks running weekends would be very welcome as well. (Or anything better then the 1 hourly service we are seeing on the London Kings Cross services for the majority of the day)

As I have said many times it is very surprising the damand on the Sevenoaks service in the peak. Good loadings at Welwyn Garden City (But is anyone going to actually wait for the Kings Cross service any more?) - However New Barnet, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate all pick up good loadings. (with lots of people waiting as the Moorgate service is only just ahead of it)

 

[jon0844]

Given Sevenoaks all day was talked about as happening in 2027, this is good news. I was told ages ago it was to become six days a week (Monday to Saturday) but I spoke to a driver that suggested they were looking at all seven days.

I assume there's a need to keep the Ashford drivers busy who never got fully utilised, but it's not clear on here whether the all day operation is anything more than Monday to Friday at this stage. Does anyone know more?

 

[OneOfThe48]

Does anyone know more?

As this group have got things wrong before I’d suggest waiting until a proper announcement before getting hopes up on the Thameslink to WGC being made an all day service.

The Hertford North change feels more likely to be true

 

[Timmyd]

Also great news for Catford Loop. Regardless of whether the off peak service is increased , simply having a direct service to Farringdon and St Pancras will be a massive plus. It’s not unusual to get off one at Blackfriars and have a 6-8 minute wait for a norrthbound Thameslink, and southbound the interchange from platforms 1 to 3 is not quick, given the length of Blackfriars platforms

 

[Julia]

* all-day Sevenoaks will mean a couple of 700/0s out all day rather than at Hornsey for maintenance. I suspect this will mean a slight increase in Electrostar usage and a slight reduction in 700/0 usage on captive GN diagrams (ie those to Cambridge, Letchworth and Peterborough).

There's a lot of GN commuters who will be delighted to hand over the 700/0s - shame I'm retiring too soon to see the 0700 from St Neots and 1742 from Kings Cross get an upgrade!

 

[NCT]

6tph Thameslink at Finsbury Park is very welcome - that means ~50 minutes out of every 60 where there's a turn-up-and-go service. Just loosely aim for the first of the flight of 3, and you needn't worry about last-minute packing panic or pre-departure PNB.

 

[geoffikent]

All in all this is good news, but a few thoughts:-

* incredible it will be nearly 7 years since Covid to get back to what existed before

* the extra services make it hard to justify retaining the disruptive Alexandra Palace calls on the Cambridge services

* if this is going to be the long-term status quo it does mean the 717 fleet is going to be incredibly under-utilised

* all-day Sevenoaks will mean a couple of 700/0s out all day rather than at Hornsey for maintenance. I suspect this will mean a slight increase in Electrostar usage and a slight reduction in 700/0 usage on captive GN diagrams (ie those to Cambridge, Letchworth and Peterborough).

* this is probably the very final nail in the Cambridge-Maidstone coffin

 

[Royston Vasey]

Removes one very big chunk of justification for the horrible idea of giving it to TfL.

 

[geoffikent]

Anyone know how many 717s are digrammed for peak weekday services now?

 

[Stephen42]

Anyone know how many 717s are digrammed for peak weekday services now?

19 diagrams from 25 units 25. At 2tph Stevenage round trips require 5 diagrams, Welwyn or Hertford each require 4.

Off peak it drops to nine units being out. If Hertford goes back to 4tph then it would increase to 13.

 

[NCT]

Removes one very big chunk of justification for the horrible idea of giving it to TfL.

It can be TfL’s job to restore the remaining 2tph off-peak Welwyns

 

[bramling]

It can be TfL’s job to restore the remaining 2tph off-peak Welwyns

I think if Welwyn Sevenoaks does go all-day, there would be little justification for 4tph Welwyn Moorgate off-peak.

The route has never loaded massively heavily, having 28 carriages worth of capacity every hour (plus a further 16 for those stations served by the Cambridge trains) is ample when one considers that not so many years ago the daytime service was 9 carriages per hour, which was perfectly sufficient most of the time.

On top of that, having 8tph using the slow lines isn’t great for performance. If there’s a desire to have additional services at Harringay, Hornsey and on the Moorgate line, I’d be looking more at running some sort of 2tph Gordon Hill service, and at the same time perhaps allowing the 2tph Stevenage service to omit certain stops to give Hertford in particular a faster journey to London.

The Welwyn route just isn’t that busy. Welwyn, Hatfield and Potters Bar are the busiest stations and these have the faster services. Welham Green, Brookmans Park and Hadley Wood are quite quiet. This leaves New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate, which would have 4tph anyway, but additionally have the Piccadilly and Northern lines not far away. The Hertford route has always been the busier one.

 

[NCT]

I think if Welwyn Sevenoaks does go all-day, there would be little justification for 4tph Welwyn Moorgate off-peak.

The route has never loaded massively heavily, having 28 carriages worth of capacity every hour (plus a further 16 for those stations served by the Cambridge trains) is ample when one considers that not so many years ago the daytime service was 9 carriages per hour, which was perfectly sufficient most of the time.

On top of that, having 8tph using the slow lines isn’t great for performance. If there’s a desire to have additional services at Harringay, Hornsey and on the Moorgate line, I’d be looking more at running some sort of 2tph Gordon Hill service, and at the same time perhaps allowing the 2tph Stevenage service to omit certain stops to give Hertford in particular a faster journey to London.

The Welwyn route just isn’t that busy. Welwyn, Hatfield and Potters Bar are the busiest stations and these have the faster services. Welham Green, Brookmans Park and Hadley Wood are quite quiet. This leaves New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate, which would have 4tph anyway, but additionally have the Piccadilly and Northern lines not far away. The Hertford route has always been the busier one.

I wouldn't be against the 7th and 8th tph running Moorgate - Ally Pally only in the off-peak, if the Bowes Park turnback is generally available.

 

[bramling]

I wouldn't be against the 7th and 8th tph running Moorgate - Ally Pally only in the off-peak, if the Bowes Park turnback is generally available.

I don’t think it would generally be considered good planning to have 2tph using it off-peak, as it then essentially blocks access to Bounds Green Depot. The realistic choices are either Gordon Hill, or possible a Moorgate-Finsbury Park shuttle reversing via the Hornsey reversing sidings (though again at times this is likely to interfere with depot movements).

 

[Segedunum]

I wouldn't be against the 7th and 8th tph running Moorgate - Ally Pally only in the off-peak, if the Bowes Park turnback is generally available.

Its not available enough to do a clockface frequency shall we say. The issue is also that empty movements during the day will regularly get shuffled around for engineering works when the depots are usually quieter (eg. to Bounds Green rather than Ferme Park) so you'd lose that flexibility.

 

[notverydeep]

Its not available enough to do a clockface frequency shall we say. The issue is also that empty movements during the day will regularly get shuffled around for engineering works when the depots are usually quieter (eg. to Bounds Green rather than Ferme Park) so you'd lose that flexibility.

Gordon Hill (which is basically the edge of the Greater London conurbation on the Hertford Loop line) as destination would include stops at Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill and Enfield Chase which are significant traffic objectives, so would add greater passenger benefit and generate more revenue, so making much more sense than using the Bowes Park turnback.