Mattplans
Member
You could also be pick-pocketed?
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How should Network Rail go about returning personal items after the Lewes incident?
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Haywain
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In which case they have to accept the consequences. Tenants are entitled to get contents only insurance which will still cover lost keys.
Annetts key
Established Member
No! As ainsworth74 says:
They are no better than putting a spare key under the door mat or plant pot. A spare key should be kept by someone you trust. Don't use these unsecure key boxes.
If the carriages can't be secured from moving, how are the recovery team going to work on and in them safely to prepare them for lifting?
I suggest that is possible to make them safe enough to enter, but that it's not a priority and they will not be searched until they have been moved and are upright.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are more expensive ones that are approved by insurers. Though it's probably just easier to leave a key with a trusted friend or neighbour.
Oh, and talking of leaving in your bag, never, ever leave your keys anywhere where you have something with your address on. A key found in the street is useless as you have no idea which house it's from, so no need to change locks. Whereas if your address is in the same bag...all the more reason never to keep your keys anywhere bar in your pocket!
WesternLancer
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agreed - but you need to apply the law of sod here
I used to stay in my shared house quite a bit over summer holiday - but my housemates didn't - they went home to family addresses many miles away - not going to be about to let me in. But would probably go to landlord or agent if they were contactable*
Sod's law means this would not work on the one occasion you needed it to do so.
* reminds me of an occasion when a student I knew l0st his keys one night in the holidays so decided the only way to get into his shared house was to break window of the front room with a brick and climb in - only to find said room - which was another housemates bedroom - had the internal door to the rest of the house locked. So he then had to climb back out of the front window on to the street - by this time a diligent neighbour had called the boys in blue thinking a burglary was under way, and the officers were there ready to apprehend the poor chap for doing nothing worse then trying to break into his own house
- lets say there was some explaining to do...I don't think he was the sort of guy for whom insurance would have been at the top of the priority expenditure items.
These keys are not lost. Their location is known. The owner is being prevented from accessing them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's possible, anything is. But it's less likely than a bag being stolen or an item being stolen from e.g. the top pocket of it.
WesternLancer
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Indeed they are. Probably depends on ones attitude to risk....
While not the case here, there are people - myself included - with passports that are literally irreplaceable due to political circumstances back home.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To be fair this is where having a spare with a neighbour works well. That can be used until the originals are returned.
This probably has some parallels with the Luton Airport car park fire - people were stuck in limbo for some time until the airport had established that recovering vehicles would not be possible and thus even though they were still there and undamaged they were write offs because they could not be extracted safely either at all or at a cost below their value. But in this case it's pretty likely they will all be recovered once the units are recovered, unless some dodgy people go and climb in overnight and nick stuff, but I expect the site is guarded 24/7.
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This is why a passport should never be left in a bag or similar! Treat it as if it was made of gold - yours even more so. (Though presumably you'll need to be making provisions for what to do when it expires?)
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
But their location might not be known.
With the carriage(s) being turned on their side, the force/impact may have thrown the keys (and other belongings) anywhere inside the carriage or even outside the carriage and be lost in the embankment/surrounding undergrowth etc. It is even possible that someone else might have picked them up either in error or all innocence. The key(s) might have fallen into a vent/heater/crevice somewhere - who knows?
The idea you shouldn't put a passport in a bag is madness. Nobody I know in the "very frequent traveller" sphere would carry it on their person in a pocket. This is just backwards engineering an objection to someone quoted in the news - not unreasonably - saying it's annoying their passport is being retained by the railway in a totally novel set of circumstances none of us could possibly foresee.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have never put it in my bag while travelling and never would, particularly not on an aircraft in case an evacuation were to be needed. And I'd certainly class myself as a frequent traveller, slightly less now but I have about 250 flights to my name (yes, a bit of a carbon footprint...)
The one place I could end up caught out would be if it was in a hotel safe and there was a fire preventing access (e.g. at Glasgow a few months back) or a misbehaving member of staff got the master key and nicked it. Or a pickpocketing, but I think that's lower risk than theft of/from a bag, though I might make special arrangements somewhere notorious for it e.g. La Rambla in Barcelona, e.g. putting it in a money belt under my clothing.
I spent about 5 years living and/or working abroad at various times during my working life and my passport spent nearly all its time in a pocket during these periods. In a lot of countries you are required to carry some form of identification with you and it was the simplest way to make sure this happened.
Anything can get nicked when you're not looking. Where are your passport and keys at the moment? I'll bet they're not both on your person.
You're right that caution and preparedness is in general a good thing, but dear me this thread is dripping in sanctimony!
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I have a spare key shallowly buried in the garden, which I have had to use although when I've forgotten my keys rather than lost them.
Much more convenient than a spare set with a trusted person. Relatives do have a spare set, but that's more in case they need to let themselves in.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Of course they're not while I'm at home. My passport is in the safe and my keys are in the back door lock.
Yes, both could fall victim to a house fire, but the keys aren't going to be much use if that happens, and I'd not be able to go on holiday if it did as I'd have to deal with the aftermath instead.
Is it? I'm just a bit flabbergasted that it isn't the norm to put these very valuably and hard to replace items on your person while out of the house!
My house is set up so you need to lock it using the key, so I can't lock myself out by accident unless I had lost them, if you live on your own this is quite sensible. It does leave the risk of leaving it unlocked I suppose (which I did do once).
Another thing you could do is hide one in the car, though if that was stolen you would probably want to change locks because there's odds on something with your address on in the glovebox e.g. a copy of your insurance certificate to avoid needing to go for a "producer" if asked for it (admittedly this has happened to me once ever). In the days before online backups I used to keep a backup drive in the car.
A lot of people would consider the risk of being pickpocketed or losing the passport from a pocket much higher than if it is in a secret pocket in your bag, which is in sight or worn at all times. If you wear cargo pants all the time it's an option but I'm not sitting on and bending my passport in my bum pocket for ten hours and most people probably wouldn't either.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've always more taken the line that having a bag grabbed is more likely to be honest. I've never had either happen though.
Mine goes in my left front pocket behind my wallet unless wearing cargo trousers/shorts (which if travelling by air/Eurostar for leisure I will be). I never use my back pockets, they are like an open invitation to pickpockets and it amazes me how many people you see walking down the street with obvious wallets and expensive phones sticking out of these, not to mention the faff of having to take the item out before sitting.
Surely the student could bill the emergency passport and a locksmith+key cutting to GTR/NR? The laptop with work on is more of an issue, granted.
Also I'm not a railway/HSE worker but it seems odd to me that if people were in and standing on the side of the train for the best part of an hour, why can it not just be signed off that a worker can go in and retrieve any belongings...
Also I'm not a railway/HSE worker but it seems odd to me that if people were in and standing on the side of the train for the best part of an hour, why can it not just be signed off that a worker can go in and retrieve any belongings...
The buried lede to this story is now it is more likely people will take their belongings with them when evacuating the train. If he'd left with his rucksack nobody would have batted an eyelid. Many passengers were pictured leaving the train with bags.
There is a lot of victim blaming in this thread. The issue was caused by the railway, so they should be the ones putting it right in a reasonable timeframe. Not claiming off insurance, or saying the belongings should have been in a different pocket or whatever.
I carry a rucksack with me everywhere I go, even if I am not transporting any possessions. It's something I subconsciously always pick up, and it feels weird without it, like going out without my watch I'm not liable to forget it, and if it stays on my lap when sitting down, it won't get lost or stolen.
Bletchleyite, I'm afraid I disagree with you. I carry my passport in my bag because it suffers less wear and tear there. The one time I carried it in a trouser pocket, its size dug into my leg uncomfortably and made my leg sweaty. It also gained a minor crease down the middle and the chip stopped working.
I carry a rucksack with me everywhere I go, even if I am not transporting any possessions. It's something I subconsciously always pick up, and it feels weird without it, like going out without my watch I'm not liable to forget it, and if it stays on my lap when sitting down, it won't get lost or stolen.
Bletchleyite, I'm afraid I disagree with you. I carry my passport in my bag because it suffers less wear and tear there. The one time I carried it in a trouser pocket, its size dug into my leg uncomfortably and made my leg sweaty. It also gained a minor crease down the middle and the chip stopped working.
this was my first thought. The railway loves to rigidly stick to its own rules though, and customer satisfaction often appears to be their last priority.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Sadly we live in a blame culture. The issue might not have been caused by the railway; we'll have to wait for the official RAIB report for that.
The inability to reunite people with their belongings in a reasonable time is however being caused by the railway...
I often have my phone in my back pocket because it doesn't fit in any of my other pockets. Granted when walking around a city I'll likely move it to my bag.
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Imo this is a pretty important trust issue. If passengers don't trust their important belongings will be returned to them I can't say I blame them for ignoring the "leave your belongings behind" advice.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This advice is not generally issued with regard to train evacuations because time is generally not of the essence. There are loads of pictures about of staff helping people off stranded trains with bags and of them pulling trolley cases down the four foot. I'm genuinely surprised he didn't take at least the important items with him, he would have had time to transfer them to pockets, as he claims to know where the bag was on board.
Obviously lifting a large trolley out of a train on its side then down a ladder to the ground isn't going to be feasible, but it's not like "leave everything and get out now else you might die in a fireball" as it is on a plane.
I'd be very wary of keeping all of passport, wallet and phone in pockets. Pockets do get picked - mine was picked on the Paris etro three years ago. I lost my wallet and rail ticket wallet (always kept in the same pocket as my wallet). Thankfully my phone and passport were elsewhere so I could still function in a degraded way.
The other thing I learned following that incident is not to carry all your bank cards with you. Leave one at home so if you lose your wallet or phone you've got a card available once you get home while you wait for replacement cards to arrive.
The other thing I learned following that incident is not to carry all your bank cards with you. Leave one at home so if you lose your wallet or phone you've got a card available once you get home while you wait for replacement cards to arrive.
Howardh
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Would be a huge help if a passport was the size of a credit card, and you could have a spare.
As for the key lock, I have one hidden outside, which has a key to the garage, in which my house key is hidden. If they can get into the garage, other than my 10 year old car, there's not much to pinch other than rusty garden implements!
Of course if you don't have a garage or outhouse that's not much use.
I carry wallet, keys, passes in a small shoulder bag, and if asked to evacuate plain, train etc and leave bags behind, that's coming with me.
The ordinary consequence of belongings not returned in this circumstance, e.g. genuinely destroyed by a fire in a train carriage, would be that you'd hire a locksmith to come and replace all of your locks. That could run you up a couple of grand.
It probably wouldn't be covered by your home insurer regardless, as they'd expect you to claim the cost of the locksmith from the railway company. Depends on the wording of your policy, the totality of your losses and the attitude towards customer service which your insurer shows. They may cover your unavoidable expenses in the short term for you and then seek to have these recovered from the railway company, or their insurer, as part of any settlement. It also depends on if anyone might be entitled to personal injury compensation from GTR.
One of the reasons why every effort is usually made to return items, in addition to PR and compassion for anything that has been saved which is of sentimental value, is that timely returns minimise liability.
WesternLancer
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I suspect the person is a private tenant. Landlord would have keys. Might even be prevented from changing locks without landlord agreeing.
That said a lock change still wise. But uncommon between such tenancies even though many previous tenants might have simply retained a key to the property.
I think I did once just so I could get into a communal hallway after I’d moved to check for post.
I meant as a general matter of principle, any number expensive losses of baggage in serious collisions are a possibility.