2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)

Kay_M said:

This I'm not surprised about. At this point let's just pray it gets into service before this decade ends.

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Or between June and December 2027. Don't forget some of the infrastructure (not the signalling) dates back to the 1930s & 1950s. If the 2024 stock is not in traffic by Autumn 2027 then something is not right or gone wrong, in my opinion.

The signalling also goes back to the 1950s… (and some bits beyond!)

I would be relatively confident of a 24TS operating in service by late 2027, if not sooner.

bluegoblin7 said:

I hadn't previously noticed the step built in to the coupler, presumably to allow easy access/egress to the M door for staff - not particularly necessary on previous stocks with the far smaller Wedgelocks.

It's quite cute tbh

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That can be fraught with danger. The little ****s in Sydney have taken to riding the back step of the Tangara trains.

I’ve always wanted to see photos of them side-by-side, so thank you for that. It’d be good to compare the side profiles of them, too. I’ve just noticed that the 1973 Stock has a windscreen wiper for the cab end door, whereas the 2024 Tube Stock doesn’t, so presumably it was deemed no longer necessary.

I am wondering about the procurement process for London Underground Stock - are all of the bidders for future stock invited to be given a tour and have a look around the cab and saloon environments of all of the existing different types of stock on all the different lines, and the depots where the stock will be maintained, and Train Operators and maintenance staff etc. asked to state what they like and don’t like about each model of stock and chat to the bidders, to inform the procurement of future stock? They can also then see what sort of materials used in existing stock might wear out more quickly than might be desired. That sort of “show-and-tell” and “touchy-feely” process seems like it might be more informative to produce constant improvements in each new type of stock, rather than just simply a dry, written technical specification. Are there ergonomic studies, such as filming Train Operators while working to see how far they have to reach for the controls, and if that causes any postural strain, etc.? The time taken for London Underground and their staff to do so seems like it’d pay off in improvements in their working environment. I suppose e.g. SIEMENS’ design team in Germany/Austria are unlikely to have experienced what it’s like to ride on and operate the 1973, 1972, and 1992 Stocks that the 2024 Stock are meant to be replacing, if there’s no process like that.

For example, for the equipment that I use in my field, they attach sensors to the muscles, to see how much force is required to use the equipment, during development of the product, in order to reduce it as much as possible:

Do they do something similar with Train Operators and fit them out with sensors to gather data and build a model of how their arm, wrist, hand, and fingers are positioned and used, to refine the amount of weight and force required to use the controls?

RUK said:

I’ve just noticed that the 1973 Stock has a windscreen wiper for the cab end door, whereas the 2024 Tube Stock doesn’t, so presumably it was deemed no longer necessary.

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1973 Stock drivers are required to view platform mounted mirrors/monitors through the front windows, 2024TS have in-cab monitors and the platform stopping chevrons are positioned for viewing through front windscreens.

Dstock7080 said:

1973 Stock drivers are required to view platform mounted mirrors/monitors through the front windows, 2024TS have in-cab monitors and the platform stopping chevrons are positioned for viewing through front windscreens.

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Instructor Operators sit on that side and are required to ensure trainees don't pass red signals and watch passengers moving towards the edge of platforms and a whole host of other observations.

The IOs have already complained they can't see much from the IO seat and don't have a good enough view of the in-cab monitors when closing doors with trainees.

I don’t understand why they are churning out more units of 2024 Stock if not everyone is happy with the design yet? Surely that just means more expense in modifying the number of units already built? Are SIEMENS purposely creating more work for themselves for later, so that they can get more money out of TfL? Can TfL even afford it? It will just create more delay overall until all of the trains are in service, so the 1973 Stock will have to be kept going for longer as well.

Presumably Siemens are contractually required to deliver trains to the contractual spec by certain dates, and to delay that would risk contractual penalties unless TfL were to agree to waive them. I suspect TfL have no interest in taking the political flak for agreeing to that.

RUK said:

I don’t understand why they are churning out more units of 2024 Stock if not everyone is happy with the design yet? Surely that just means more expense in modifying the number of units already built? Are SIEMENS purposely creating more work for themselves for later, so that they can get more money out of TfL? It will just create more delay overall until all of the trains are in service, so the 1973 Stock will have to be kept going for longer as well.

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In addition to the comment above. Manufacturing drawings are signed off for production; contractors and staff are fully deployed; materials are being supplied to the assembly line in accordance with a delivery schedule.

Is there is a fundamental reason as to why production needs to be paused, rather than delivering the vehicles first and agreeing the scope of the modifications and/or remedial works later down the line?

Isn’t it more difficult to modify things later than to make them right from scratch? I suppose the modifications will be newer than the rest of the train, but the whole train could be newer if it were made later, after the modified design were agreed. Will the build quality of something that’s modified be as good as if it were designed and built the right/final way from the beginning, rather than bodged together afterwards? I suppose it’s a problem with the design not being agreed/specified well in the first place. It might have been better to just make a prototype and test it for longer than they have done, before starting to make the rest of the trains.

Most LU fleets have had modifications after introduction. It's a total non-issue.

I imagine Siemen's production lines are booked months and years in advance, with components being sourced in line with the needs of the production line. If you pause the TfL trains, a contract for another operator can't just jump the queue to keep production lines running.

Another delivery to Old Dalby from Goole today. Happened to go past me as it was slowing down into Melton Mowbray about half an hour ago. Think it was unit 067 but don't quote me on that.

It was confirmed on another forum.