First Potteries Discussion

As someone who did a fair bit of (manual) scheduling with sizeable operators years ago, our starting point was to marry the available resources to sensible timetables for the passenger. This might mean a bit of stretching here or squeezing there but the passenger got an easily remembered timetable with reasonable reliability. With the coming of computerised systems, the system overtook the product and eventually we end up where we are now - a computer programmer with no feel for the product determines how it delivers and that is sacrosanct even if in reality it is nonsense. All that is needed is a skilled operating manager with the power and incentive to tweak the computer draft, and be prepared to defend those tweaks if challenged. Yes, on occasions that may break this 95%ile target, but no more than day to day traffic fluctuations will do anyway, and the user is offered a more sensible and memorable timetable into the bargain.

SSmith2009 said:

Exactly the same in Leicester.

Ever since the introduction of AI derived timetables they have too much time padded into them meaning a 55 min round trip is now well over 80 mins and runs at an uneven headway of between every 8 to 19 mins between buses.

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Though First Leicester have always been scheduled quite slowly compared to others. A joke, probably slightly unfair, was that they were still set for the average speed & acceleration of a bus from the 50's. When Centrebus & First were competing on the 54 I think Centrebus were able to do the round trip across town (Beaumont Leys - Goodwood - Beaumont Leys) about 20-mins quicker than First did without an obvious deterioration in comparable reliability and you would often see First drivers wait for the Centrebus when heading back to the depot as they knew it would overtake the First bus by then when buses were about 5-mins apart.

When I was first looking for scheduling jobs, we are going back over 20 years now so with modern computerised scheduling & AI influences it may have changed, I wrote on speck to a local First company and the MD invited me for a chat but he told me there wouldn't be opportunities with First as all their schedulers were ex bus drivers - nothing wrong with that, and you probably get schedules & timetables more sympathetic to the drivers needs, but as you started looking at their running times compared to other operators on a similar corridor you did start to wonder whether there was a tendency amongst them to not tighten up running times as much as someone who ws less likely to be friends with the drivers on the ground. But if your drivers are used to driving at a slower average speed then the data will schedule at a lower average speed and if drivers know that a particular operator uses slower average speeds then drivers who are more comfortable with slower schedules will be attracted to them. I have known drivers who are naturally a little faster as drivers and others who cannot speed up from a sedate speed, the former would hate driving schedules that are set too slow whilst the later could never cope with an operator who uses tighter schedules.

AI type systems look quite useful at doing the data crunching and even providing a modified base timetable but I do think someone should come in to check and adjust the timetable to smooth some of those vagaries, because traffic isn't that predictable that a delay will exist every day at 1300 that won't ever be there at 1315, to produce a better and more marketable final product to actual implement.

Does the AI scheduling account for oddities such as the last 103 from Crewe towards Hanley being earlier on a Saturday than it is on Monday to Friday and even on Sunday? I find it odd that on Saturday, there are 3 buses that arrive into Crewe and then go out of service whereas on the other days, there are only two with an extra one returning in service.

Martin1988 said:

Does the AI scheduling account for oddities such as the last 103 from Crewe towards Hanley being earlier on a Saturday than it is on Monday to Friday and even on Sunday? I find it odd that on Saturday, there are 3 buses that arrive into Crewe and then go out of service whereas on the other days, there are only two with an extra one returning in service.

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The one and only aim of the software they use is to "maximise punctuality with minimal resource use" (it ignores logic) it found a way for the bus to be sent home earlier on that day which in short it saves them money. I'm sure these cost savings will absolutely totally one hundred and ten percent be passed onto the passenger.

Have noticed that many of the ex-badger line double deckers digital information displays and announcements still don’t work?

It works fine for the blue constellation buses so not sure why this hasn’t been fixed on the other double deckers, they are of the exact same bus fleet afterall

RealTrains07 said:

Have noticed that many of the ex-badger line double deckers digital information displays and announcements still don’t work?

It works fine for the blue constellation buses so not sure why this hasn’t been fixed on the other double deckers, they are of the exact same bus fleet afterall

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The vast majority of them do work. Looks like they’ve had a new program with the new blinds.

sytransport said:

It’s all to do with the granularity selected and user prompts as to why times on one service vary from another and why a service 2 minutes earlier may take 5 minutes longer for example. Unfortunately the corridors must not to be set up correctly for Potteries and that’s why there are journeys so close together that vary in running time causing an overlap.

It is very flawed and I personally think they should use an average runtime rather than one based off a percentile, but the powers that be want it that way. The best thing to do from a passenger perspective is to record common occurrences of excess waiting time and inconsistencies and lodge them as formal complaints. I’m in no way disagreeing with the views but I do think it’s important to give correct information on how the AI system works.

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Thank you for your detailed responses, It's good to know more about how the software works.

I'm not sure how much benefit there is to making a formal complaint though. When I did mention the 10 minute Longton wait I just got something along the lines of 'we use industry leading software', clearly no intention to adjust things. Which is the same for the buses between Hanley and Newcastle via Festival Park. Two minutes apart then 28, or similar, all day long, essentially a 30 minute frequency instead of 15. Not sure what that is doing for custom, it certainly loses mine.

Baxenden Bank said:

Thank you for your detailed responses, It's good to know more about how the software works.

I'm not sure how much benefit there is to making a formal complaint though. When I did mention the 10 minute Longton wait I just got something along the lines of 'we use industry leading software', clearly no intention to adjust things. Which is the same for the buses between Hanley and Newcastle via Festival Park. Two minutes apart then 28, or similar, all day long, essentially a 30 minute frequency instead of 15. Not sure what that is doing for custom, it certainly loses mine.

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The problem is that the odd complaint won’t do anything, constant complaints (especially from various people) will. There’s studies to show longer journeys detracts people from travelling by bus so I think there’s a case to argue the use of it!

I'll be in the area this weekend and wondered if there is any notable Potteries services to try or any Transport Heritage related things to see?

Posting this here, as the First Worcester thread has been locked

Noted today at Potteries was First Worcester E200 44608 prepped ready for painting. I think this is the last of the Cymru Red liveried buses operating for Worcester ?

Walking past the depot today I noticed that Wright streetlite 63250 SN15ABF has reappeared. This has been out of service for more than a year. I did see it several times at the depot post it's accident in April 2025. It got repaired & repainted, but then disappeared for several months. Hopefully this will be back out soon. Does anyone know where it was until recently ?
Photo from today is mine - https://www.flickr.com/photos/195213371@N03/55258870500/in/datetaken-public/

Was there any sign of the West of England Scanias 36825/28/29/31/33 that are transferring to Essex but may have stopped off at Stoke for a repaint?

Whiteway215 said:

Was there any sign of the West of England Scanias 36825/28/29/31/33 that are transferring to Essex but may have stopped off at Stoke for a repaint?

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There was indeed. They were just parked in a poor position to get pictures. I noted the following ex Air Decker vehicles on site yesterday:
36301 BF65WHZ (Repainted)
36303 WX67LCP
36304 WR69JYO
36305 WR69JYP
36321 WA64GXW (Repainted)
36825 YX67XDA
36828 YX67XDD
36829 YX67XDE
36831 YX67XDH
36833 YX67XDK

None of the examples yet to be painted into Ultraviolet have been prepped for paint. I would anticipate 36302 is currently being worked on as I saw it on site the previous week.

3x Ex Bristol Airport Flyer Scania deckers have been used this week on the Painsley Cheadle High School contract services - 36827,31,34. I wouldn't have thought these are staying long term though as these are non standard type vehicles for Potteries, so anyone know why these have been bought into use here? I can't imagine they are short of vehicles, especially considering the summer 25 reduced timetable has recently kicked in

Could the deckers be running the Delamere Forest Live Shuttles in Cheshire between Northwich & Delamere?

I spotted 36825 YP67 XDA in Hartford.

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36828 YP67 XDD & 36825 YP67 XDA spotted at Northwich Interchange on Delamere Forest shuttles today.

Spoke to a driver who confirmed operating out of Adderley Green depot with First Potteries legals on the bus.

I noted yesterday teatime travelling eastbound on the A50 near Uttoxeter several Potteries Wright Streetdecks including 35684 and 35947. Also in the convoy was one of the Scania N250UD's recently added to the fleet, 36831.
I'm guessing these are part of the contingent that First are sending for Silverstone shuttle work this weekend? Does anyone know if this is correct?
Also, how come the 6x N250UD's have been added to the fleet? I can only presume it's a temporary measure, especially with one already having been repainted into base Essex Airlink colours. How long will these be stopping on fleet before moving on?

I note on the planned timetable changes on the First Potteries website that they have lost the Painsley College school contracts from September.
Does anyone know who has been awarded these? Also, is there a plan to reduce the number of deckers in the fleet as a consequence?

G760XRE said:

I note on the planned timetable changes on the First Potteries website that they have lost the Painsley College school contracts from September.

Service changes - 30th August 2026

We're making some changes to some of our services from 30th August. An overview of what's changing A quick guide to all changes on your services! Service What's changing on 30th August? Classification 25 Hanley - Keele

www.firstbus.co.uk

Does anyone know who has been awarded these?

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Copeland's appear to be doing all the PC services.

Doing a Wikipedia rewrite for the former First Chester & The Wirral operation, and this quote appeared:

The company was later split, with the original Potteries Motor Traction becoming First Staffordshire & South Cheshire and the north Cheshire and Wirral operations, First Chester & The Wirral.

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A quick Google quote search pulls up nothing for 'First Staffordshire & South Cheshire', and other editors consider First Potteries to be the name of the operation despite the subsequent managerial changes. So, therefore, did 'First Staffordshire & South Cheshire' ever exist in some capacity (i.e. only in administrative terms like with First South Yorkshire and Midlands) or is this a made-up name from God-knows how long ago?

Hullian111 said:

Doing a Wikipedia rewrite for the former First Chester & The Wirral operation, and this quote appeared:

A quick Google quote search pulls up nothing for 'First Staffordshire & South Cheshire', and other editors consider First Potteries to be the name of the operation despite the subsequent managerial changes. So, therefore, did 'First Staffordshire & South Cheshire' ever exist in some capacity (i.e. only in administrative terms like with First South Yorkshire and Midlands) or is this a made-up name from God-knows how long ago?

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I am not aware that it was ever referred to as that.

In legal terms, it was PMT Ltd until 1996/7, then First PMT Ltd until 2007, and then First Potteries Ltd