That's disappointing, I hope other operators don't follow suit.
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TFW removing off peak day returns
- Thread starter LlanishenBull
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Kite159
Veteran Member
So back to how advance tickets used to be, mostly booked by the day before with no 'on the day' sales. Which for something like Bolton to Manchester makes sense with multiple trains per hour. Where the single leg pricing makes it better for those travelling to Manchester during peak hours and back to Bolton during off-peak etc.
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pokemonsuper9
Established Member
It wasn't done by Northern, it was a TfGM decision.
The advanced tickets are just arbitrary routes (e.g. most places have them to Manchester, but few do to Wigan), the single leg pricing has fixed the problem they barely solved (since previously the only singles were anytimes just below the return cost, with advances being about the price a single should have been).
Advance tickets on such short trips shouldn't be a thing. For short trips what is wrong with flexible tickets?
I know some people who use the apps even if they are using a a flexible ticket, think you have to travel on service listed on the app.
I know some people who use the apps even if they are using a a flexible ticket, think you have to travel on service listed on the app.
I know many people who think that you have to travel on the booked train even if you have an off-peak or anytime return. The ticketing system confuses and even frightens them, which is a massive fail on the part of the train operating companies.
Belperpete
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The Advance Flex tickets do seem to be good value. I use them for my trips to Chester. They are more "flex" than "advance". They are effectively walkup tickets, as they are available until time of departure, with no time restrictions, at a set price for all trains (no tiers). Available for return on any TfW train on the same day, again without time restrictions. Effectively they are an anytime day return, except you are restricted to your booked outward train (which is no problem if you buy your ticket at the station). Importantly, they are significantly cheaper than Avanti's CDR, on a route where Avanti usually do the undercutting.
They don't seem to be available on all routes though. I can't find them on the Cambrian, for example. BRfares show them HHD-CDF, so I presume this means they are available between any two stations between HHD and CDF? Are they available on any other routes?
Advanced Flex Return sounds great but they are really badly labeled in the app to the point that I've never purchased one.
I've attached a screenshot that makes me think it's specific train only for both outward and return journey. Now I know that doesn't make sense that would be 2 advanced singles but the railway has a way of being dumb like that sometimes.
If someone could confirm the app is just wrong that would be great.
All that said if it is indeed a specific outward but a flexible return, I think that's actually a pretty acceptable replacement for off peak day returns. I've seen many routes where advanced Flex return is offered and I often know my outward journey way more than my return. They already got rid of peak Vs off peak on the valley lines years back and obviously PAYG is often much cheaper for that area.
Obviously I resent the simplification label as others have said it's just a way to make a bit more money. But also it's not a simplification as the alternatives involve stuff such as TOC restrictions which exactly what nationalisation should be doing away with.
I've attached a screenshot that makes me think it's specific train only for both outward and return journey. Now I know that doesn't make sense that would be 2 advanced singles but the railway has a way of being dumb like that sometimes.
If someone could confirm the app is just wrong that would be great.
All that said if it is indeed a specific outward but a flexible return, I think that's actually a pretty acceptable replacement for off peak day returns. I've seen many routes where advanced Flex return is offered and I often know my outward journey way more than my return. They already got rid of peak Vs off peak on the valley lines years back and obviously PAYG is often much cheaper for that area.
Obviously I resent the simplification label as others have said it's just a way to make a bit more money. But also it's not a simplification as the alternatives involve stuff such as TOC restrictions which exactly what nationalisation should be doing away with.
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Belperpete
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Not only is it badly labelled on the app, but both outward and return tickets also state only valid on booked trains. However, if you look up the restriction code (eg on BRfares) you will see that the only restrictions on the return is that it must be a TfW service, and no break of journey.
Presumably quota controlled so they can sell out, meaning that you might not always be able to purchase one?
Not much of the Marches is in Wales.
py_megapixel
Established Member
It also allows them to have break of journey restrictions on return tickets.
Does anyone have any idea why they do this? It reduces flexibility for passengers and I can't see how it benefits the operator to tell passengers they can't get off the train early.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Generally it is done so they can price journeys at their market rate, in some cases due to competition the market rate for a longer journey may be lower than a shorter one.
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I well remember the joy of finding that it was functionally impossible back then to buy a return with my priv in North Wales back then before you could use it on off peak tickets!
Mcr Warrior
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Presume this now means that break of journey at an intermediate station will likely mean that split tickets will possibly be required?
Envoy
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With the ability to buy an off peak return and travel back on any train - plus the option to hop off if so desired en route - is switched to buying Advance tickets and being forced to guess which one you will return on becomes the new policy (except in the Contactless areas) at TFW, then I will be switching to using the car which gives me the freedom to do what I like.
Mainline421
Member
Most TfW routes already use Anytime Day returns exclusively, and nothing has changed regarding period returns. So there is not any impact on BoJ except a small increase in fare on an even smaller number of routes.
No criticism of the OP since the titles is accurate, but highly misleading
Why not?
Maybe more focused on those where there are other operators, hence it is more important to get 100% of the revenue rather than the case with the interavailable off-peak return which goes into a pot and the revenue shared? I can see TfW v GBR being quite competitive (which may or may not be good news for passengers), whilst GBR v GBR may be under more pressure to minimise net subsidy and be seen to 'simplify'.
LlanishenBull
Member
They removed longer off peak day returns last year. For example, my most regular journey outside the south wales payg area is Heath High Level (or Cardiff Central) to Hereford and that option was removed. So I split at Newport or hopped off and on to tap at Abergavenny. More of the latter in future.
Yes, they removed it for several of the corridors where you could split to save money on day-trips along the Marches line. The fares along the Marches line are really rather eyewatering, especially considering the level of service. They're more in keeping with what you'd expect on the WCML or ECML, not a secondary line with 1 (and a bit) trains per hour.
LlanishenBull
Member
My split tickets this Saturday (hhl to Buxton) is £63 with a railcard (without would perhaps be prohibitively expensive). 4 different returns, only 2 are off peak day returns.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Is PRT still new after 10 years?
Kite159
Veteran Member
I would imagine so. I.e. on a Saturday where there is a large event happening at the Millennium Stadium (6 Nations etc).
Although those sort of events are ideal for something like the Advance Flex ticket, as generally you will know what time you plan to head to Cardiff, but the return time could vary depending on the length of queue.
Farigiraf
Member
It's not even necessarily about distance - if a flow has at least 1 train an hour, then providing an affordable flexible option should be standard, and if it has at least 4 trains an hour (of similar journey times) then fixed-train advance purchase is total nonsense. But in most cases yield management takes priority over logic, and TFW's Manchester-Marches route is one of those where filling up the limited capacity with long-distance travellers is deemed more important by TFW than those pesky short distance travellers.
That's not to say that there isn't a place for advances - certainly if the short journey leg were part of a longer journey (e.g. Northern Rochdale - Manchester then Avanti/EMR/TPE) then it makes sense to offer a cheap option for advance booking, that's common practice. But releasing advances with a limited quota is not a suitable substitute for an affordable walk-up fare on commuter routes. If Northern offers advances on sub-1h routes, and they are used a lot, that's not a success of advance tickets and an indicator of passenger preference, it's likely a result of an expensive walk-up fare.
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Belperpete
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You may be right, but I have yet to find a TfW train on the North Wales coast where the Flexi Advance isn't available, including trains that have been full and standing. Although that may be because they aren't selling many, because people don't understand them.
They could only ever quota restrict the outward portion, as you are free to use the return portion whenever you want.
Depends on the part of the country I suppose-TfL seem to be just realising the existence of barcode ticketing as a norm rather than some new-fangled niche option...
kieron
Established Member
TfW can't do that. The only anytime return tickets they price are "via Hereford" and "via Shrewsbury" ones which exist to undercut fares via Birmingham.
TfW also provide a slower route between Chester and Manchester, theirs with a change in Crewe. There's no discount, though.
Either way, brfares.com shows TfW-priced off peak day returns as being very much alive in September. Perhaps some will vanish then, I don't know.
If it's that insignificant, why do it in the first place ?
Are the anytime returns elsewhere equivalent in cost to a cheap day return elsewhere ? If they want to simplify, shouldn't they at least offer an anytime return on the routes affected, which would achieve consistency across their fares ?