TFW removing off peak day returns

LlanishenBull · 3 Aug 2026

Had an email from TFW today about off peak day returns being ceased. Tickets i use regularly as I dont want to be tied to specific trains by buying an advance. Supposedly you can buy an advance flex but no evidence of those on sale.

They claim only 3% of journeys are off peak day returns, i guess this is a bit of playing with statistics.

I guess it would be ok if anytime day returns outside of the sw metro area weren't so expensive.

The English part of the comms below ....

From 13 August, Off-Peak Day Return tickets will be removed on journeys priced by Transport for Wales. We're simplifying our fares to make them clearer, fairer and more consistent for customers.

Other ticket options will still be available, including pay as you go (where available), Advance tickets and Advance Flex tickets. Depending on your journey, these offer similar or better value for customers.

We're making this change to simplify our ticket choices and to help make train travel easier to understand and use.

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Kite159 · 3 Aug 2026

Scotrail get rid of peak time fares...

TfW gets rid of off-peak fares!

Farigiraf · 3 Aug 2026

LlanishenBull said:
Had an email from TFW today about off peak day returns being ceased. Tickets i use regularly as I dont want to be tied to specific trains by buying an advance. Supposedly you can buy an advance flex but no evidence of those on sale.

They claim only 3% of journeys are off peak day returns, i guess this is a bit of playing with statistics.

I guess it would be ok if anytime day returns outside of the sw metro area weren't so expensive.

The English part of the comms below ....

From 13 August, Off-Peak Day Return tickets will be removed on journeys priced by Transport for Wales. We're simplifying our fares to make them clearer, fairer and more consistent for customers.

Other ticket options will still be available, including pay as you go (where available), Advance tickets and Advance Flex tickets. Depending on your journey, these offer similar or better value for customers.

We're making this change to simplify our ticket choices and to help make train travel easier to understand and use.

The Pandora's box is well and truly open now. Expecting numerous other operators to follow, now that two different operators have both done this, which greenlights further anti-passenger developments. The Advance Flex is still better than what LNER offer, but is by no means an excuse to remove the CDR.

I wonder if the 3% - which still by no means is a small amount, noting the dozens of tickets available for each journey and how expensive they've gotten over the years - factors in PAYG users making a return trip outside the peak? Effectively paying a little more than what would now be the CDR fare. It's also probably worth looking at the journey stats for regional TFW travel, where the figure is most likely closer to 30% than 3%.

I'm surprised by how much, to this day, I still get frustrated by the 'passengers' travel habits are changing' line. It's deliberately misleading, they know it, we on the forum know it. Most people aren't railway power users, they buy the ticket that Trainline offers them - so when the year-on-year walk-up fare price rises (and LNER-style trials) make the CDR fare turn up less often on the Trainline results page, then passengers choose it less. This situation has been slowly crafted over the years, to give an excuse to head towards the French railway model (of zero-growth, dynamic pricing and car dependency outside of profitable routes), although I'm not sure whether it's due to malice or just a Hanlon's razor situation.

I'm glad that there are still a multitude of rover tickets in the TFW area, giving a fallback if the walk-up fares get too high (or disappear completely). Though even these have risen in price by 50% lately.

Will the reduction in demand on off-peak services as a result of this be offset by an increase in advance availabilty, or will it give TFW an excuse to cut services (as GTR/avanti have been doing)?

LNW-GW Joint · 3 Aug 2026

Many TfW Off Peak Day Returns have already gone, being replaced by the more expensive (Anytime) Off Peak Return (restriction 8A, but no time restriction and no break of journey).
Presumably these are staying.
The time restrictions (morning and afternoon) on CDRs made them largely unusable anyway, though their break of journey facility was useful.

Kite159 · 3 Aug 2026

.

LNW-GW Joint said:
Many TfW Off Peak Day Returns have already gone, being replaced by the (Anytime) Off Peak Return (restriction 8A, but no time restriction and no break of journey).
Presumably these are staying.

Until TfW decide to get rid of those tickets as being confusing and only have anytime returns available for those wanting a return fare and not to be tied to a particular service.

JonathanH · 3 Aug 2026

Kite159 said:
Scotrail get rid of peak time fares...

TfW gets rid of off-peak fares!

It amounts to the same thing. The outcome for passengers just depends on how the resulting fares are priced. There is a negative psychological factor of having the same price all day when passengers are used to a saving for off-peak travel.

How many TfW routes still have off-peak day returns? Is this just the culmination of a process that has been going on for some time? Seem to be a few along the South Wales Main Line, and into Chester from Wrexham, but perhaps not elsewhere?

Some of the Scotrail off-peak fares still feel expensive, particularly for single journeys.

Starmill · 3 Aug 2026

It's not good news and 3% is actually enormous given how few flows set by TfW still have this ticket type. The Wilmslow - Shrewsbury one went last year, which effected a rise of about 18%.

However, in context, it could be far worse.

Watershed · 3 Aug 2026

This is a revenue raising exercise, plain and simple. It'd be rather less objectionable if they were honest about that, rather than hiding behind the pretence of 'simplification'. It's very distasteful for a public body to engage in in such spin.

The irony is even greater because TfW have engaged in the precise opposite of ticketing simplification in recent years. They have introduced multiple new ticket types - for example Advance Flex Return and the Family Ticket. I can't imagine any of those reach even a 3% market share - so by TfW's claimed logic, they should be scrapped...

The impact will also be felt across more than 3% of customers, because the existence of the Off-Peak Day Return will have capped the Advance and single fares that can be charged for a lot of journeys. Like with the LNER fares 'simplification', carefully chosen percentages should be taken with a truckload of salt.

Farigiraf · 3 Aug 2026

Starmill said:
It's not good news and 3% is actually enormous given how few flows set by TfW still have this ticket type. The Wilmslow - Shrewsbury one went last year, which effected a rise of about 18%.

To give an example of the price differences between two routes of a similar length, for a day return:
Wilmslow - Shrewsbury (52min): £30.60 (valid at any time) - no other options.
King's Lynn - Cambridge (56min): £26.00 (SVR), £17.60 (SDR), £14.00 (CDR), £11.20 (CBA / Weekend CDR)
Neither routes are intercity railways - they're regional lines with an hourly service. Therefore they are not at all suited to ticketing that makes APs the only sensible option.
So anyone not travelling at peak times will be paying around double for a regional journey in Cheshire/Shropshire, compared to the Fen line - which itself isn't the cheapest route.

Kite159 · 3 Aug 2026

Watershed said:
This is a revenue raising exercise, plain and simple. It'd be rather less objectionable if they were honest about that, rather than hiding behind the pretence of 'simplification'. It's very distasteful for a public body to engage in in such spin.

The irony is even greater because TfW have engaged in the precise opposite of ticketing simplification in recent years. They have introduced multiple new ticket types - for example Advance Flex Return and the Family Ticket. I can't imagine any of those reach even a 3% market share - so by TfW's claimed logic, they should be scrapped...

And if anything those tickets are more confusing to the "Man on the Clapham Omnibus" than an off-peak day return.

A bit like LNER with their ever so simple "70 minute flex" tickets where sometimes it's cheaper to buy a "Flex" ticket for a train you don't want to catch to use it on the train you want to use (i.e. buying a Flex ticket on a slower Edinburgh/Newcastle train to use it on an Express)

Segedunum · 3 Aug 2026

When I saw the thread title I thought "oh, single leg pricing, maybe?"

Clearly my cynicism was all worn out for the day :lol:

JonathanH · 3 Aug 2026

Segedunum said:
When I saw the thread title I thought "oh, single leg pricing, maybe?"

Clearly my cynicism was all worn out for the day

Well single leg pricing does apply where PAYG has been introduced, and there seem to be medium distance advance single fares for many flows.

It is almost as if TfW are trying to price off medium distance discretionary travel, in favour of short distance hops and longer distance advance bookings.

Roverebbw · 3 Aug 2026

Do they mean Monday the 31st August as the 13th August is
Thursday

Krokodil · 3 Aug 2026

No change up here. We lost our CDRs many years ago. A lot of the SDRs went as well, plus some of the group tickets, forcing large numbers of passengers to be stuck with the SVR for all purposes.

JonathanH · 3 Aug 2026

Krokodil said:
No change up here. We lost our CDRs many years ago. A lot of the SDRs went as well, plus some of the group tickets, forcing large numbers of passengers to be stuck with the SVR for all purposes.

Is the idea that people are meant to buy advance fares? There seem to be lots of tiers of advance fare prices but limited availability, and the availability doesn't appear to point to trains expected to be less busy.

The way that the Trainline app (and indeed other booking engines) work is for combinations of singles to be offered if that is cheaper, and given the capacity on some TfW services, it seems that pushing passengers to advance purchase for middle distance, as well as long distance journeys could even out loadings.

However, what seems a little odd if that is the subtext is that TfW aren't describing the change as that, and it just looks like price hiking.

Bletchleyite · 3 Aug 2026

Is this LNER style or is the Off Peak Return remaining?

Farigiraf · 3 Aug 2026

Bletchleyite said:
Is this LNER style or is the Off Peak Return remaining?

Yes and no - the Off Peak Return does remain, but it's unrestricted and generally priced higher than a typical SVR, so it's effectively just the Anytime Return. There's no off-peak discount for flexible travel where you return within 1 month.

Starmill · 3 Aug 2026

Bletchleyite said:
Is this LNER style or is the Off Peak Return remaining?

And the SDR.

Krokodil · 3 Aug 2026

JonathanH said:
Is the idea that people are meant to buy advance fares?

Now? Probably. Pricing managers like them because no revenue has to be apportioned out. They don't care that they're unsuitable for a lot of passengers over the shorter flows we're discussing.

Back then in North Wales? There were a fraction of the Advance fares available back then. The motivation was entirely to price off passengers on the severely overcrowded trains by withdrawing anything cheaper than a period return.

Dewedin · 4 Aug 2026

All I can say to them is good luck with making it more expensive to visit Wales.

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Aug 2026

Chester-Manchester return will be a popular fare (wholly in England).
TfW sets the Any Permitted fares and has the Off Peak Return SVR/8A at 20.30, and an Anytime Day Return (SDR) at 20.20.

But you can get cheaper fares on Northern Only (SDR 19.70, CDR/B3 16.70), or Avanti Only (change at Crewe) CDR/B3 14.60.
All three operators run essentially hourly services (Northern has 2tph if you include the slower route via Northwich).
TfW and Northern offer Advances on the route; not Avanti.

Can this sort of fare structure survive GBR? TfW will be there long-term.

Furryanimal · 4 Aug 2026

We lost off peak tickets from Cwmbran many years ago.
They still exist from Newport to Cardiff and from Cardiff westwards where competition exists.
But i rarely ( except on Summer Sunday mornings) make a local trip by train as I travel free on the bus.

Mcr Warrior · 4 Aug 2026

LNW-GW Joint said:
Chester-Manchester return will be a popular fare (wholly in England).
TfW sets the Any Permitted fares and has the Off Peak Return SVR/8A at 20.30, and an Anytime Day Return (SDR) at 20.20.

Thought the TfW-priced route "Any Permitted" tickets between Chester and Manchester stations were currently priced at £24.30 (Off Peak Return) or £24.20 (Anytime Day Return) and have been for quite some time.

Bletchleyite · 4 Aug 2026

LNW-GW Joint said:
Chester-Manchester return will be a popular fare (wholly in England).
TfW sets the Any Permitted fares and has the Off Peak Return SVR/8A at 20.30, and an Anytime Day Return (SDR) at 20.20.

Is it common for SDR to SVR to be a 10p difference? That does seem pointless.

Mainline421 · 4 Aug 2026

LlanishenBull said:
Other ticket options will still be available, including pay as you go (where available), Advance tickets and Advance Flex tickets. Depending on your journey, these offer similar or better value for customers.

This is a concerning statement as they blatantly only push Advances (which are often very poor value) not Anytimes.

But this this actually isn't much of a change at all, unlike other TOCs TfW mostly use Anytime Day Returns, in fact at a glance I can't see any CDRs available already. And I say this as a regular-ish user who doesn't buy Advances.

Bletchleyite · 4 Aug 2026

Mainline421 said:
This is a concerning statement as they blatantly only push Advances (which are often very poor value) not Anytimes.

TfW seem to push Advances quite hard, similar to the way Northern use them (though no longer do within the Manchester local area). They are available right up to departure even for very local journeys. I've had one purchased standing on the platform from Dolgarrog to the Junction, for instance.

I'd agree there aren't many CDRs though. On the rural bits there aren't really peaks as such, so it's all Anytimes and 8A ("not really off peak") Off Peaks*. Chester to Manchester is probably the reasonably big loss here as most people will do that as a day trip.

* The reason for keeping these is often cited as the risk of people using Anytime Returns with their 5 day outward validity as de-facto season tickets, particularly when purchased on paper for cash as some staff don't bother marking them. But there is now the Anytime Short Return as pioneered by Northern which only has one day outward validity, so goodness knows why they keep this confusing and misleading name which just originates from them being Savers, a name which actually made sense in the context because they were cheaper than two singles.

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Aug 2026

Mcr Warrior said:
Thought the TfW-priced route "Any Permitted" tickets between Chester and Manchester stations were currently priced at £24.30 (Off Peak Return) or £24.20 (Anytime Day Return) and have been for quite some time.

Yes you're right, I've copied those wrongly from BRFares.
There are a huge number of fares for this flow, if you add things like carnets and group fares.

Timbo999 · 4 Aug 2026

I cannot see any likelihood of TfW rail becoming part of GBR because its ownership and, apparently, mission is fundamentally different from other (English) TOCs. What happens in Wales (and perhaps for cross border journeys operated by TfW) is a matter for the Welsh government. In my book, journeys on TfW services between stations entirely in England should be provided under contract to an English operator and priced accordingly.

Of course, it doesn't help my argument that the only north south route crosses the border multiple times!

81A · 4 Aug 2026

Bletchleyite said:
particularly when purchased on paper for cash as some staff don't bother marking them..

And this will cease to be an issue once CCST (Credit Card Sized Tickets-the old magstripe ones with no usefully scannable barcode) is fully phased out in favour of PRT (Paper Roll Tickets-the new barcoded till roll style tickets, scanned the same way E-tickets are).

Starmill · 4 Aug 2026

Bletchleyite said:
TfW seem to push Advances quite hard, similar to the way Northern use them (though no longer do within the Manchester local area). They are available right up to departure even for very local journeys. I've had one purchased standing on the platform from Dolgarrog to the Junction, for instance.

Northern do still push them quite hard for local journeys. There are lots of ads for an Advance ticket to Manchester for £2.50 in Bolton, for example. It's just that there's now a 2359 booking deadline on them.

TFW removing off peak day returns

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