Gareth1990
Member
I don’t think I’ve ever been on a service that has arrived on time into Sheffield. Literally every time I’ve been delayed by at least 10 minutes, what exactly is the reason trains are held up there?
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Constant delays around the Sheffield area - what can be done to improve the situation?
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RailUK Forums
Too many trains, not enough infrastructure. Especially on the northern end of the station where you basically have three lines (Doncaster, Barnsely and Worksop) all converging onto one two track station throat capacity is tight. It's one of those places that the timetable works in theory but as soon as one train gets out of sequence, or takes a bit longer to clear the platform, things can spiral rapidly and suddenly everything is picking up delays. It's similar to the south though not quite as bad as to the north.
Ideally at some point Sheffield will get a full remodel to accommodate modern traffic levels.
Gareth1990
Member
I’ve also noticed the really tight turn around times for trains that have to reverse, again I’ve never been on a service that has managed it within the two minutes allocated
To many trains for the layout that dates back to the 1970s.
Also short overlaps on the signalling, for example a southbound service going into platform 8 will be held at the north end if a service is entering platforms 6 or 7.
Trainman40083
Established Member
All very interesting. I've been on a service coming into Sheffield that would terminate in platform 4. Held outside the station with three other trains ahead, awaiting platforms.
People talk about HS2 being routed into Sheffield Midland at one time (where?). They call for additional express services down the Hope Valley, and recently we saw the additional Yorkshire Express adding to the mix. Certainly isn't enough capacity. Certainly not if passenger numbers grow.
Also see some local trains have to share platforms, like 3 and 4...Then you get the odd freight train to/from Hope Valley in the mix.
People talk about HS2 being routed into Sheffield Midland at one time (where?). They call for additional express services down the Hope Valley, and recently we saw the additional Yorkshire Express adding to the mix. Certainly isn't enough capacity. Certainly not if passenger numbers grow.
Also see some local trains have to share platforms, like 3 and 4...Then you get the odd freight train to/from Hope Valley in the mix.
BorderCollie
Member
As noted above Sheffield is stuck in a 1970s time loop. Not a single piece of infrastructure investment in 50 years. It's genuinely astonishing. Whilst elsewhere we've seen platform zeros and new loops, turnout speed increases, new four or six tracking - Sheffield has had nowt.
Indeed, wasn't the immediate step before that rationalisation of the southern approach which eliminated a burrowing junction that may have been useful today?
Yes those have always seemed brave...
Well, HS2 would have come with wider upgrades to station layout no doubt! But yeah Sheffield feels like it must surely be high on the agenda for a proper remodel. I sometimes wonder if it's suffered from the MML electrification hokey cokey. As a remodel would doubtless be part of any electrification that happened. And seeing as that kept being pushed back, cancelled, etc etc...
py_megapixel
Established Member
Not quite: in recent years we have seen the very welcome redoubling of the line through Dore, which seems to have improved reliability enormously for Hope Valley trains. Although one might reasonably argue that the track should never have been removed in the first place!
A late, and very much missed, signalman at the now closed Leicester PSB used to say something similar, regularly.
"Too many trains, not enough track!"
Trainman40083
Established Member
I get the feeling that MML electrification is moving to a fill in project.. If they electrify Leeds to Sheffield, the gap towards Leicester gets ever nearer.. I recall Northern saying they would have no more 2 car units. Not sure what length the bays are. Presume an EMR Aurora fits in platform 7. (Can't say I've seen one there).
BorderCollie
Member
Very true - Dore reinstatement was always low hanging fruit. Even that was on, off, on again... But thinking about the Sheffield Midland station area which was in my mind, the zero investment statement stands.
I think many readers will know this but worth repeating - appraoch from the south into Midland is known by crews as the Crucible. You need a red before you get a colour.
I agree with all the points below but generally I have been on time into and out of Sheffield (mainly to/from Doncaster but also to/from Bristol fairly regularly) over the last couple of years.
D365
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2012
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- 13,157
Has Sheffield Midland ever had grade separation?
Iskra
Established Member
Meadowhall was a new station too with significant park and ride development. You can also argue that the Rotherham tram train is useful for Sheffield, including some new electrification!
That aside though, the track layout at Sheffield isn’t fit for purpose and needs urgent attention.
Although, in the meantime additional capacity should be provided by extending train formations to make best use of the infrastructure when and where possible.
BorderCollie
Member
Film of the southern approach dive under half way down this previous thread:
Disused tunnel just south of Sheffield station?
Hi everyone, As you depart Sheffield station heading south there is a siding that appears to end at a tunnel mouth. Can anyone confirm whether it is a tunnel mouth and if so where it led to? Thanks for reading this.
www.railforums.co.uk
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
Yes, you can see the 'flyunder' on the 1937 OS Map (north of the Charlotte Street overbridge).
OS 1937
While true, the short north end (and indeed south end) bays limit that to some extent.
Iskra
Established Member
Appreciated, hence; ‘when and where possible.’
py_megapixel
Established Member
I think the main place there is scope for longer trains through Sheffield is Cross Country.
Isn't it astonishing how many problems could be solved by just chucking some more rolling stock at Cross Country
Iskra
Established Member
I think EMR Mainline are actually looking a lot worse than XC at the moment…I think the main place there is scope for longer trains through Sheffield is Cross Country.
Isn't it astonishing how many problems could be solved by just chucking some more rolling stock at Cross Country
py_megapixel
Established Member
Those issues are temporary and (we hope) short term while they sort out the issues with the new units. I believe the bottleneck preventing further capacity increases will then be platform capacity at St Pancras.
Meanwhile, XC overcrowding has been a thing since time immemorial, with no end in sight!
Which trains have an allowance of 2 minutes for a reversal?
Gareth1990
Member
The Leeds-Lincoln trains do
eastwestdivide
Established Member
Not all of them. A quick RTT for today 0600-2000, Leeds-Lincoln services, shows most 3 or more minutes on the public times, and the two 2-minute ones are actually 3 minutes according to the working timetable times.
fishwomp
Established Member
Huddersfield - Sheffield usually has a 7 minute WTT turnaround, which is close to insanity for a line with three single track sections and an hourly service.. a recipe for propagating delays throughout the day.. only a 2-min margin with the oncoming service at Barnsley for the first section.. and 2 minutes at Clayton West Jct.
Quite a few issues could be solved if Cross Country ran more on time. A number of occasions I have been on a train that has been delayed leaving or pulling in so that a late running Cross Country train could go or arrive before it even if it’s just to get to/from the Worksop route. Sometimes this can happen with TransPennine but mainly it seems to be Cross Country.
Most of the times the services generally arrive & depart close to or right on time I find.
Most of the times the services generally arrive & depart close to or right on time I find.
The whole thing is a house of cards of course, the paths are relatively fixed by the passing of trains on the single line sections, which lead to the times the paths arrive and depart Sheffield, so adding a longer turnaround time either means interworking the service with other service groups (which will transmit delays and disruption to other lines or route) or finding another unit to add to the service (clearly Northern are flush with units!) and even if you did that, you probably would struggle to find a slot on platforms 1 and 2 for the units to shunt on and off at almost exactly the same time.
Sheffield needs a Reading scale scheme to sort it out!
A significant proportion of XC delays are result of following late running stoppers, southbound on time till Swinton, then crawling most of the way into Sheffield, northbound on time till Dore, then signal to signal down the bank into Sheffield, this occurs most days.
fishwomp
Established Member
And XC has the advantage of near exclusive access to platform 6 southbound so can at least get into the station once that stopper is cleared.
However, if you're on such a local stopper, the nemesis is the lack of platforms northbound - so you end up waiting in the cuttings for another service to come out.. For ages.
It feels quite rare to get straight in (at least for me..).
We had a discussion about some of that a while back - one post in particular I liked: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-p6-and-p8-at-sheffield.258877/#post-6535132 - a (ex-)contributor on here who worked Sheffield workstation - simple interventions could make a big difference (quoting him here
