Constant delays around the Sheffield area - what can be done to improve the situation?

[Gareth1990]

I don’t think I’ve ever been on a service that has arrived on time into Sheffield. Literally every time I’ve been delayed by at least 10 minutes, what exactly is the reason trains are held up there?

 

[ainsworth74]

I don’t think I’ve ever been on a service that has arrived on time into Sheffield. Literally every time I’ve been delayed by at least 10 minutes, what exactly is the reason trains are held up there?

Too many trains, not enough infrastructure. Especially on the northern end of the station where you basically have three lines (Doncaster, Barnsely and Worksop) all converging onto one two track station throat capacity is tight. It's one of those places that the timetable works in theory but as soon as one train gets out of sequence, or takes a bit longer to clear the platform, things can spiral rapidly and suddenly everything is picking up delays. It's similar to the south though not quite as bad as to the north.

Ideally at some point Sheffield will get a full remodel to accommodate modern traffic levels.

 

[Gareth1990]

Too many trains, not enough infrastructure. Especially on the northern end of the station where you basically have three lines (Doncaster, Barnsely and Worksop) all converging onto one two track station throat capacity is tight. It's one of those places that the timetable works in theory but as soon as one train gets out of sequence, or takes a bit longer to clear the platform, things can spiral rapidly and suddenly everything is picking up delays. It's similar to the south though not quite as bad as to the north.

Ideally at some point Sheffield will get a full remodel to accommodate modern traffic levels.

I’ve also noticed the really tight turn around times for trains that have to reverse, again I’ve never been on a service that has managed it within the two minutes allocated

 

[class 9]

I don’t think I’ve ever been on a service that has arrived on time into Sheffield. Literally every time I’ve been delayed by at least 10 minutes, what exactly is the reason trains are held up there?

To many trains for the layout that dates back to the 1970s.
Also short overlaps on the signalling, for example a southbound service going into platform 8 will be held at the north end if a service is entering platforms 6 or 7.

 

[Trainman40083]

All very interesting. I've been on a service coming into Sheffield that would terminate in platform 4. Held outside the station with three other trains ahead, awaiting platforms.

People talk about HS2 being routed into Sheffield Midland at one time (where?). They call for additional express services down the Hope Valley, and recently we saw the additional Yorkshire Express adding to the mix. Certainly isn't enough capacity. Certainly not if passenger numbers grow.

Also see some local trains have to share platforms, like 3 and 4...Then you get the odd freight train to/from Hope Valley in the mix.

 

[BorderCollie]

As noted above Sheffield is stuck in a 1970s time loop. Not a single piece of infrastructure investment in 50 years. It's genuinely astonishing. Whilst elsewhere we've seen platform zeros and new loops, turnout speed increases, new four or six tracking - Sheffield has had nowt.

 

[JonathanH]

As noted above Sheffield is stuck in a 1970s time loop. Not a single piece of infrastructure investment in 50 years. It's genuinely astonishing. Whilst elsewhere we've seen platform zeros and new loops, turnout speed increases, new four or six tracking - Sheffield has had nowt.

Indeed, wasn't the immediate step before that rationalisation of the southern approach which eliminated a burrowing junction that may have been useful today?

 

[ainsworth74]

I’ve also noticed the really tight turn around times for trains that have to reverse, again I’ve never been on a service that has managed it within the two minutes allocated

Yes those have always seemed brave...

All very interesting. I've been on a service coming into Sheffield that would terminate in platform 4. Held outside the station with three other trains ahead, awaiting platforms. People talk about HS2 being routed into Sheffield Midland at one time (where?). They call for additional express services down the Hope Valley, and recently we saw the additional Yorkshire Express adding to the mix. Certainly isn't enough capacity. Certainly not if passenger numbers grow. Also see some local trains have to share platforms, like 3 and 4...Then you get the odd freight train to/from Hope Valley in the mix.

Well, HS2 would have come with wider upgrades to station layout no doubt! But yeah Sheffield feels like it must surely be high on the agenda for a proper remodel. I sometimes wonder if it's suffered from the MML electrification hokey cokey. As a remodel would doubtless be part of any electrification that happened. And seeing as that kept being pushed back, cancelled, etc etc...

 

[py_megapixel]

As noted above Sheffield is stuck in a 1970s time loop. Not a single piece of infrastructure investment in 50 years. It's genuinely astonishing. Whilst elsewhere we've seen platform zeros and new loops, turnout speed increases, new four or six tracking - Sheffield has had nowt.

Not quite: in recent years we have seen the very welcome redoubling of the line through Dore, which seems to have improved reliability enormously for Hope Valley trains. Although one might reasonably argue that the track should never have been removed in the first place!

 

[45Fox]

Too many trains, not enough infrastructure.

A late, and very much missed, signalman at the now closed Leicester PSB used to say something similar, regularly.

"Too many trains, not enough track!"

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes those have always seemed brave...

Well, HS2 would have come with wider upgrades to station layout no doubt! But yeah Sheffield feels like it must surely be high on the agenda for a proper remodel. I sometimes wonder if it's suffered from the MML electrification hokey cokey. As a remodel would doubtless be part of any electrification that happened. And seeing as that kept being pushed back, cancelled, etc etc...

I get the feeling that MML electrification is moving to a fill in project.. If they electrify Leeds to Sheffield, the gap towards Leicester gets ever nearer.. I recall Northern saying they would have no more 2 car units. Not sure what length the bays are. Presume an EMR Aurora fits in platform 7. (Can't say I've seen one there).

 

[BorderCollie]

Not quite: in recent years we have seen the very welcome redoubling of the line through Dore, which seems to have improved reliability enormously for Hope Valley trains. Although one might reasonably argue that the track should never have been removed in the first place!

Very true - Dore reinstatement was always low hanging fruit. Even that was on, off, on again... But thinking about the Sheffield Midland station area which was in my mind, the zero investment statement stands.

I think many readers will know this but worth repeating - appraoch from the south into Midland is known by crews as the Crucible. You need a red before you get a colour.

 

[ricoblade]

I don’t think I’ve ever been on a service that has arrived on time into Sheffield. Literally every time I’ve been delayed by at least 10 minutes, what exactly is the reason trains are held up there?

I agree with all the points below but generally I have been on time into and out of Sheffield (mainly to/from Doncaster but also to/from Bristol fairly regularly) over the last couple of years.

 

[D365]

Indeed, wasn't the immediate step before that rationalisation of the southern approach which eliminated a burrowing junction that may have been useful today?

Has Sheffield Midland ever had grade separation?

 

[Iskra]

As noted above Sheffield is stuck in a 1970s time loop. Not a single piece of infrastructure investment in 50 years. It's genuinely astonishing. Whilst elsewhere we've seen platform zeros and new loops, turnout speed increases, new four or six tracking - Sheffield has had nowt.

Meadowhall was a new station too with significant park and ride development. You can also argue that the Rotherham tram train is useful for Sheffield, including some new electrification!

That aside though, the track layout at Sheffield isn’t fit for purpose and needs urgent attention.

Although, in the meantime additional capacity should be provided by extending train formations to make best use of the infrastructure when and where possible.

 

[BorderCollie]

Has Sheffield Midland ever had grade separation?

Film of the southern approach dive under half way down this previous thread:

Disused tunnel just south of Sheffield station?

Hi everyone, As you depart Sheffield station heading south there is a siding that appears to end at a tunnel mouth. Can anyone confirm whether it is a tunnel mouth and if so where it led to? Thanks for reading this.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Has Sheffield Midland ever had grade separation?

Yes, you can see the 'flyunder' on the 1937 OS Map (north of the Charlotte Street overbridge).

OS 1937

 

[JonathanH]

Although, in the meantime additional capacity should be provided by extending train formations to make best use of the infrastructure when and where possible.

While true, the short north end (and indeed south end) bays limit that to some extent.

 

[Iskra]

While true, the short north end (and indeed south end) bays limit that to some extent.

Appreciated, hence; ‘when and where possible.’

 

[py_megapixel]

Appreciated, hence; ‘when and where possible.’

I think the main place there is scope for longer trains through Sheffield is Cross Country.

Isn't it astonishing how many problems could be solved by just chucking some more rolling stock at Cross Country

 

[Iskra]

I think the main place there is scope for longer trains through Sheffield is Cross Country.

Isn't it astonishing how many problems could be solved by just chucking some more rolling stock at Cross Country

I think EMR Mainline are actually looking a lot worse than XC at the moment…

 

[py_megapixel]

I think EMR Mainline are actually looking a lot worse than XC at the moment…

Those issues are temporary and (we hope) short term while they sort out the issues with the new units. I believe the bottleneck preventing further capacity increases will then be platform capacity at St Pancras.

Meanwhile, XC overcrowding has been a thing since time immemorial, with no end in sight!

 

[6Gman]

I’ve also noticed the really tight turn around times for trains that have to reverse, again I’ve never been on a service that has managed it within the two minutes allocated

Which trains have an allowance of 2 minutes for a reversal?

 

[Gareth1990]

Which trains have an allowance of 2 minutes for a reversal?

The Leeds-Lincoln trains do

 

[eastwestdivide]

The Leeds-Lincoln trains do

Not all of them. A quick RTT for today 0600-2000, Leeds-Lincoln services, shows most 3 or more minutes on the public times, and the two 2-minute ones are actually 3 minutes according to the working timetable times.

 

[fishwomp]

Not all of them. A quick RTT for today 0600-2000, Leeds-Lincoln services, shows most 3 or more minutes on the public times, and the two 2-minute ones are actually 3 minutes according to the working timetable times.

Huddersfield - Sheffield usually has a 7 minute WTT turnaround, which is close to insanity for a line with three single track sections and an hourly service.. a recipe for propagating delays throughout the day.. only a 2-min margin with the oncoming service at Barnsley for the first section.. and 2 minutes at Clayton West Jct.

 

[JD2168]

Quite a few issues could be solved if Cross Country ran more on time. A number of occasions I have been on a train that has been delayed leaving or pulling in so that a late running Cross Country train could go or arrive before it even if it’s just to get to/from the Worksop route. Sometimes this can happen with TransPennine but mainly it seems to be Cross Country.

Most of the times the services generally arrive & depart close to or right on time I find.

 

[IanXC]

Huddersfield - Sheffield usually has a 7 minute WTT turnaround, which is close to insanity for a line with three single track sections and an hourly service.. a recipe for propagating delays throughout the day.. only a 2-min margin with the oncoming service at Barnsley for the first section.. and 2 minutes at Clayton West Jct.

The whole thing is a house of cards of course, the paths are relatively fixed by the passing of trains on the single line sections, which lead to the times the paths arrive and depart Sheffield, so adding a longer turnaround time either means interworking the service with other service groups (which will transmit delays and disruption to other lines or route) or finding another unit to add to the service (clearly Northern are flush with units!) and even if you did that, you probably would struggle to find a slot on platforms 1 and 2 for the units to shunt on and off at almost exactly the same time.

Sheffield needs a Reading scale scheme to sort it out!

 

[class 9]

Quite a few issues could be solved if Cross Country ran more on time. A number of occasions I have been on a train that has been delayed leaving or pulling in so that a late running Cross Country train could go or arrive before it even if it’s just to get to/from the Worksop route. Sometimes this can happen with TransPennine but mainly it seems to be Cross Country.

Most of the times the services generally arrive & depart close to or right on time I find.

A significant proportion of XC delays are result of following late running stoppers, southbound on time till Swinton, then crawling most of the way into Sheffield, northbound on time till Dore, then signal to signal down the bank into Sheffield, this occurs most days.

 

[fishwomp]

A significant proportion of XC delays are result of following late running stoppers, southbound on time till Swinton, then crawling most of the way into Sheffield, northbound on time till Dore, then signal to signal down the bank into Sheffield, this occurs most days.

And XC has the advantage of near exclusive access to platform 6 southbound so can at least get into the station once that stopper is cleared.

However, if you're on such a local stopper, the nemesis is the lack of platforms northbound - so you end up waiting in the cuttings for another service to come out.. For ages.

It feels quite rare to get straight in (at least for me..).

Sheffield needs a Reading scale scheme to sort it out!

We had a discussion about some of that a while back - one post in particular I liked: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-p6-and-p8-at-sheffield.258877/#post-6535132 - a (ex-)contributor on here who worked Sheffield workstation - simple interventions could make a big difference (quoting him here

From the South we cannot signal passenger trains into Platform 6 because it is done under the authority of Position Lights, there isn't even an indicator to tell drivers where they would be going. We can run ECS and Freight/Light Locos that way though. If there was a Main Aspect at the North of 6, it would be ok, because then main aspect from the South could be used.

We always run into 8 from the South, because there is a Main Aspect S139 on the North End. But it's a fixed Red. So the only signal we can give trains from S139 is a position light, for what's referred to as a Wall Side Movement. For this we have to talk drivers through the move.

Back to Platform 6, the North End signal is a GPL, so again, we have to talk to drivers of passenger trains the movements.

If these two signals were just but fully operational signals under main aspect, the flexibility of the station would improve tenfold. As we could also use them for such as the Leeds and Lincolns who come in and change ends, in times of disruption especially.

[..]

From a signalling point of view, there are so many small scale projects that would help. If I were the money;

Dore redoubled (now getting done, but it's taken 20 years.....)

Double the Holmes Chord

Get rid of the single lead junction at Masborough

Reopen Masborough Loop

A North Facing crossover from the Back of Brightside Station back to the Down Main so we can use it as a loop, like we do for when the Barnsley trains are all over the place.